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r1bqk1nr/pp2ppbp/2np2p1/2p5/4P3/2NP2P1/PPP2PBP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 6 in this position of the closed sicilian there are three main lines 6 Nge2 , 6 Be3 and an incredibly complex line from 6 f4 this goes like this:-[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "20"] 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. f4 (6. Be3 e5 7. Qd2 Nge7 8. Bh6 Bxh6 9. Qxh6 Nd4 10. Qd2 Be6 11. Nd5 Nxd5 12. exd5 Bd7 13. c3 Nf5 14. Ne2 h5) (6. Nge2 e6 7. Be3 Nd4 8. O-O Ne7 9. Qd2 O-O) 6... e6 7. Nf3 Nge7 8. O-O O-O 9. Be3 b6 10. d4 d5 *

[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "26"] 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. Be3 e5 7. Qd2 Nge7 8. Bh6 O-O 9. h4 Bxh6 10. Qxh6 f6 11. h5 $4 $19 g5 12. Nh3 Kh8 13. O-O-O Ng8 * this is a better 6 Be3 line for black which traps the Queen

AlanLlewellyn wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:30 pm

[ an incredibly complex line from 6 f4 this goes like this

[SetUp "1"] [FEN "r1bq1rk1/pp2npbp/2npp1p1/2p5/4PP2/2NPBNP1/PPP3BP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 5 9"]

In this position, 9 .. Nd4 is a little more common, although the theory reply is to offer a temporary pawn sacrifice with 10. e5 (White later captures on c5 with the Bishop from e3)

Daniel King in his power play fritz trainer says Nd4 is bad in that line and when you look at the results the 9...e5 line make Nd4 bad thats one of the reasons (the weakness of c5) why 9...b6 is played.

basically black needs to act quickly to avoid the pawn advance d4 by white, which if allowed without playing d5 himself forces the d6 pawn to be a weak backward pawn.

if white playes 6 Nge2 it is bad to play e5 as d5 square is then too much a weakness when the Knight on c3 can jump in aided by other knight on e2-c3, then you play e6 but if 6 Be3 then e5 is played but i am confused when or not to play Nd4

Nd4 is a waste of a move in many lines. White's Knight on c3 doesn't do much usually (unless it hops into d5) and so its often re-routed, and a Knight on d4 is easily kicked by c3. Even if white doesn't voluntarily chose to re-route the queen's knight, he often has to anyway as black can only really play down the queenside and often does by launching the b-pawn down the board, in hope of opening up the c-file (quite often but not always).

The feeling always was that Black needed to prevent d4. Why that move is so much to be feared, with its loss of tempo, is unclear.

I suppose the short answer, Nick, is that a loss of tempo isn't (necessarily!) the end of the world - otherwise, to take an obvious exampIe, no-one would play the Delayed Exchange variation of the Ruy Lopez. But, back in the Closed Sicilian, after a main(ish) line such as 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 d6 6 f4 e6 7 Nf3 Nge7 8 00 00 9 Be3 b6 (instead of 9...Nd4) then the main choices seem to be 10 Bf2 or 10 d4.

Well, yes, but SF14 is definitely on Nick's side

It thinks that 9 .. b6 10 d4 d5 is absolutely fine for black, but white can stay equal if he messes about instead. What it truly likes for black is 9 .. Rb8.

Then 10 d4 d5 is somewhere around +0.5 for black. Otherwise its mostly after b5 etc. Looks thoroughly classical and logical to me actually, it does make you wonder slightly what the issue is/was meant to be.
(Probably was, these NN computers are absurdly strong even in the opening!)

It does also seem to be trying to play Nd4 at times, clearly not trying to stop d4!, I guess just to swap the pieces or something.

Nd4 is so often a positional trump. That's why some people say the knight on c3 is badly placed and has to be rerouted so you can get c3 in and kick that knight out. But whatever you play the bottom line is if you play the closed Sicilian, tiny advantages are the best you can hope for.

The Closed offers White nothing. I should know, I've played it often enough!

Standards in the opening have improved. For example, look at Nunn's famous loss to the young Hodgson. No one would play that badly these days!