Odd ending

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
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Rob Thompson
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Odd ending

Post by Rob Thompson » Sat May 22, 2010 10:53 pm

does anyone know of any theory/information on 3 minor vs 2 rook endings? I had one in my county match today and had no knowledge of what plans i should be making etc
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Ian Thompson
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Re: Odd ending

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat May 22, 2010 11:39 pm

Rob Thompson wrote:does anyone know of any theory/information on 3 minor vs 2 rook endings? I had one in my county match today and had no knowledge of what plans i should be making etc
There is just under a page on this ending in Basic Chess Endings, but no theory to speak of. Fine says "This is normally a draw, but in favour of the pieces because they have more play. With a pawn to the good the pieces will win." He then gives an example game (Capablanca-Alekhine, Nottingham 1936) where the pieces plus an extra pawn do win.

I don't think its mentioned in Batsford Chess Endings or any of the Averbakh endings books I have.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Odd ending

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun May 23, 2010 3:58 am

I think the question is too open for rules of thumb.

Are the three bits working well together, are two of the minor pieces Knights.
Rooks have to be very careful where they actively tread when there are
Knights about. Knights terrify them.

What was the pawn situation. Was it a pawnless game?

A computer might chop one of the pieces for a Rook
so it get it into it's Rook v 2 MP's database.

I read in NIC of a case years ago where a box gave away a perfectly
sound pawn, changing a 3 v 1 pawn plus to a 2 v 1 pawn plus because
the 2 v 1 position was in it's database. (It won quicker without tossing
it's extra pawn but the DB rules).

Your best bet is to post the game and let some of the good guys
offer an opinion. I'm sure some would relish a chance to display
their skill in this forum.

William Metcalfe
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Re: Odd ending

Post by William Metcalfe » Sun May 23, 2010 5:49 am

I won a game earlier this season where i had the 3 minor pieces v 2 rooks but i also had 2 pawn advantage.I swapped down to this endgame s there was only 1 open file for the rooks and i could close it at anytime with a Bishop or Knight
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Sean Hewitt

Re: Odd ending

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun May 23, 2010 10:35 am

I had this in the County Championships final last year with equal pawns. I had the two rooks and the position felt worse to me. I couldn't see and good squares for my rooks so I punted a draw offer which was accepted. Fritz rated my position about -1.10

David Sedgwick
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Re: Odd ending

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun May 23, 2010 12:10 pm

Rob Thompson wrote:does anyone know of any theory/information on 3 minor vs 2 rook endings? I had one in my county match today and had no knowledge of what plans i should be making etc
In that case you seem to have handled the situation pretty well.

I've mentioned elsewhere that I was playing on the adjacent board. When the ending arose, I remembered the reference in Fine quoted by Ian Thompson. I too don't know any other theory on the ending.

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Re: Odd ending

Post by John Upham » Sun May 23, 2010 12:31 pm

I've checked in "Secrets of Pawnless Endings" (Nunn) and Fundamental Chess Endings (Lamprecht and Müller) and it is not covered. :shock:
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David Sedgwick
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Re: Odd ending

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun May 23, 2010 12:44 pm

Just to clarify - both in Capablanca v Alekhine and in Rob Thompson's game there were several pawns on each side.

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Rob Thompson
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Re: Odd ending

Post by Rob Thompson » Sun May 23, 2010 6:37 pm

since it was asked for, and to make it clearer, the game itself is below

[Event "U-180 County Championship"]
[Site "Stratford-Sub-Castle"]
[Date "2010.05.22"]
[Round "QF"]
[White "French, Angus"]
[Black "Thompson, Robert"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. e4 c5 2. c3 g6 3. d4 cxd4 4. cxd4 d5 5. e5 Nc6 6. Nc3 Bg7 7. h3 Nh6 8. g4 0-0 9. f4 f6 10. Bg2 fxe5 11. fxe5 e6 12. Nf3 Qb6 13. 0-0 Rxf3 14. Bxf3 Qxd4+ 15. Qxd4 Nxd4 16. Bf4 Nf7 17. Rae1 Nc6 18. Nxd5 exd5 19. e6 Nh6 20. e7 Bd7 21. Bxd5+ Kh8 22. Bd6 Ng8 23. Rf8 Ncxe7 24. Rxa8 Nxd5 25. Be5 a6 26. Kf2 Nb4 27. Bxg7+ Kxg7 28. Rd1 Bc6 29. a3 Nd5 30. Rd4 Ngf6 31. Rc4 Bb5 32. Rd4 Nc7 33. Ra7 Bc6 34. Rc4 Nfd5 35. a4 Kf6 36. b4 Ke5 37. Kg3 Kd6 38. Rd4 Ne6 39. Rd2 Ng5 40. Rd1 Ne4+ 41. Kh4 h5 42. Ra8 Ke5 43. b5 axb5 44. axb5 Bxb5 45. Re1 Nf4 46. Rxe4+ Kxe4 47. gxh5 gxh5 48. Kg5 Nxh3+ 49. Kxh5 Nf4+ 50. Kg5 Nd5 51. Ra5 Bc6 52. Ra1 Nc3 53. Re1+ Kd5 54. Kf4 Kc4 55. Ke5 b5 56. Kd56 Be4 57. Ke5 b4 58. Rg1 b3 59. Rg8 Bc2 60. Rg4+ Ne4 61. Rg1 b2 62. Re1 Nc3 63. Rh1 Be4 64. Rg1 Kd3 65. Re1 Kc2 66. Kd4 Bd3 67. Rg1 Ne2+ 0-1
True glory lies in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read.

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