English Chess Forum

After
E4 c5 Nc3 a6 Nge2 Nf6 why not e5??

My book fighting the anti sicilian by Richard Palliser does give e5 any notes?

Why not just play normal open/closed lines? Seem to work for others and have a good success rate for white! Unless you are playing a real expert you should be ok - trust in the force.

From a non expert point of view E5 does leave a long term hole on D5 and makes life awkward for the dark square black bishop - not that either of these are life or death. With NGE2 blocking in the white square bishop kind of looks as if F4 is going to be played after d3 and maybe g3, bg2 especially if E5 is played. Oh so many options.....what to do...hmmm.

E5 is less flexible than d6, e6, etc alternatives but it doesn't seem inherently bad.

Gavin Strachan wrote:rom a non expert point of view E5 does leave a long term hole on D5 and makes life awkward for the dark square black bishop -

Leaving the move numbers out makes the original question difficult to read. I think the question was after 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 a6 3 Nge2 Nf6, is it possible to hit the knight on f6 with 4 e5? I think the answer is yes, but Black will reply with 4 .. Ng4. White then will play 5 f4 to defend the pawn and you reach a position which appears unknown to theory (in other words there are no previous games). On a quick setting, Rybka says equal.

These positions with pawns on f4 and e5 don't always work out very well for White. A Black knight can take up residence on the f5 square and the central pawns can be undermined with .. g5.

Roger de Coverly wrote:I think the question was after 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 a6 3 Nge2 Nf6, is it possible to hit the knight on f6 with 4 e5?

Alternatively after the normal move 4 g3, 4 .. e5 does look playable. Again there are no games with that exact position. It depends as Black whether you feel comfortable with that hole on d5.

As long as there are no immediate tactics, openings can simply be a question of getting pieces and pawns to the squares you want them on in the early middle game. So White would continue with some combination of g3, Bg2, d3, 0-0 and possibly f4, whilst Black would play (after .. e5) d6, Nc6, Be7, 0-0 with b5 perhaps thrown in as well

Sorry Roger for not adding the move numbers. Will start again.

I am looking at this as black against the anti-sicilian. Just looking at what to play after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3. Looking at 2...a6 and came across 3.Nge2 then Mr Palliser gives 3...Nf6 but I saw 4.e5 pushes my Knight back to the back rank.

You would not believe it, just found it!! 4.....Ng4 attacking the pawn. Think I am right.

Hi Warren.

I think your sentence should read.

"Richard Palliser does NOT give e5 any notes?

Sorry if the correction is wrong. I myself sigh with pity at these pendantic
glums who feel the need to correct spelling and grammar on public forums.

Here however missing out the 'Not' is or was, slightly confusing. (to me anyway).

Roger is on the money when he says no previous games in theory.
An opening book cannot cover every eventuality and plausible moves with
no game history means work for the author (hence no notes) .

The object of the opening book is to relieve you of money by giving
you a collection of games (which you could download yourself from any
reasonable database). Tart it up with a few Fritz notes and Ker-Ching!

So you are looking at Closed Sicilian lines from a Black point of view.
We again heed Roger's words.

"...you reach a position which appears unknown to theory."

Listen to what good players say, you get that advise for free and it is often good.
What they say and what they write sometimes differ.
(always remember Warren......Ker-Ching!)

So there is very strong chance you are wasting your time looking at an opening
position that you will never see OTB.

Forums all over the net are filled with questions about unmentioned and
unplayed but yet totally plausible moves in the opening.
As I said. "An opening book cannot cover every eventuality...."

Selecting what opening variations to look at is a skill.
The skill is getting into a postion you like and feel you can play.
Always remembering of course that your opponent (damn them) is
trying to do the same.

The other part of the skill is deciding how much time (and memory cells) are you
going to spend on a variation (which in this case history dictates you will never see OTB).

However you asked and I like talking chess.



Now I differ from Roger (and from the one game I found with this line).

I would never ever play 5.f4 in that position.
(I'd also never see this postion. 3.Nge2?? that is not a me move, it's crap).
Playing f4 to hold a pawn on e5 in the opening without a 100% plus.
No way. I'd sooner let the thing go.

(toss that opening book behind the settee and get yourself Rowson's Zebras and you
will learn all about the trigger happy f-pawns and a lot lot more about the game.)

5.d4 .....

I like anti-Sicilians as White but always look for a chance to transpose
into an open game with d4 if I want to.

It's important that bit. 'If I want to....'
It's postions you like. Not what opening books tell you to like.
(Yes listen to the good guys, but you must know yourself.)

5.....cxd5
6. Qxd4 ....



That will do. I'll play that.
I've lost my White plus so I'll pretend I started with Black.
I'm not at all happy about the thing on e2
but I won't worry about it because it will never happen in one of my games.

Here is the one game I found with this line.

Again we fall back on Roger's words.

"A Black knight can take up residence on the f5 square...."

Listen to the good guys....

In the game the Knight threatened to come to f5 so White played g4.
(This is all explained in Zebra's how f4's and Black's f5's lead to other weakening pawn moves.)

White ended up all cramped and felt the need to play 14.Kd2 in this postion
to get himself sorted out.



Hope this helps. I enjoyed doing it.

Geoff

Afek,Y (2314) - Kodentsov,G (2279) Gronigen 2009

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 a6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.e5 Ng4 5.f4 d6 6.h3 Nh6 7.exd6 Qxd6 8.g4 f5 9.g5 Nf7 10.Bg2 h6 11.h4 hxg5 12.hxg5 Rxh1+ 13.Bxh1 Nc6 14.d3 Bd7 15.Be3 Nd4 16.Kd2 0-0-0 17.Qg1 Nxe2 18.Nxe2 e6 19.a4 Bc6 20.Ra3 c4 21.Rc3 Bxh1 22.Qxh1 Qd5 23.Qxd5 exd5 24.dxc4 d4 25.Nxd4 Bb4 26.Kd3 Bxc3 27.Kxc3 g6 28.c5 Re8 29.Bd2 Nd8 30.Nf3 Nc6 31.b4 Re4 32.Nh4 Ne7 33.Kd3 a5 34.bxa5 Rxa4 35.c4 Kd7 36.Bc3 Ke6 37.Bf6 Ra3+ 38.Kc2 Rh3 39.Bxe7 Rxh4 40.Bd6 Rh3 41.Be5 Kd7 42.Bd6 Kc6 43.Kb2 Rf3 44.Kc2 Ra3 45.Kb2 Rxa5 46.Kc3 Ra1 47.Kd4 Re1 0-1

Thanks for that Geoff, my grammar and spelling does let me down at times. You are right Richard does not give any notes on e5. The book is burning on the fire as I write this message.

Don't burn it. Put it on E-Bay.... Ker-Ching!

Just saved me 15p on my heating bill.

On a side note, I came back to chess after many years off and started playing for the team in League matches and played very well considering. Then went out and bought books on openings and my game went to pieces, stopped reading the books and played off the cuff and started playing well again. Must mean something.

1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 a6 3 Nge2 Nf6 4 e5 Ng4 5 d4 cxd4 6 Qxd4

That was a useful trick to get d4 in.

Black playing h5 looks necessary. Now Rybka suggests f4 anyway, Black plays 7 .. Nc6 hitting the Queen which goes to 8 Qa4. Now Rybka likes 8 .. Qb6 which is met by 9 h3. Black can then play 9 .. Qf2 met by 10 Kd1.

If you think this is totally mad and not what White is looking for in a Closed Sicilian, you are probably right. It might work as a piece of in-depth preparation for a particular opponent.

Hi Roger

Stop giving me f4. It's a mug's move.
Remember I'd sac e5 before f4. I'm now in big D mode.
Develop, develop develop.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 a6 3. Nge2 Nf6 4. e5 Ng4 5. d4 cxd4 6. Qxd4 h5 7. h3

Stops the Qb6 ideas. I do the attacking.
It may cost a pawn, it may cost a piece, It may cost two pieces.
I do the attacking.

7...Nc6 8.Qe4 Ngxe5 9. Bf4 Ng6 10. O-O-O Nxf4 11. Nxf4



I'll play that. A pawn down and v the two Bishop.
(how are they getting out - where is he castling - be optimistic).

I can see nothing but OTB traps and they are all on the for me.
Don't Rybka these postions, they don't understand the game.

Warren have you seen?

http://www.chessville.com/GC/All_openin ... ripoff.htm

Had a look Geoff, very funny, my kind of humour, apologises if you're serious

In the game above withe blocked in bishops etc, reminds me of that saying "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single footstep"

Big D mode, love it!!!

In the last diagram be nice to put a white knight on d6++