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I took up playing the modern/kings indian a few years ago when it was thought to be rubbish and lots of white players had forgotten how to deal with it, but more recently it seems to have had an annoying resurgence in popularity and people are once again taking the time to close it down. Lately I have been finding that the positions I am getting end up being very cramped with white able to eventually break through on the queenside, yet when I see other players using this defence they are doing ok by transposing into a benko gambit later on.

So, do you think this is the only way for black to really deal with negative blocking play by white or are there other attempts that can be made (for example I have sometimes seen c6 tried to break the white centre but it just seems so risky and likely to drop the d pawn) ?

Joey Stewart wrote:I took up playing the modern/kings indian a few years ago when it was thought to be rubbish and lots of white players had forgotten how to deal with it,

I see you use the specific idea with an early Nc6. Thus 1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. e4 Nc6. Tiger's books cover this, but he also suggests that transposing to a regular Kings Indian with .. Nf6 may be better.

If you use a relatively unusual system for several years, opponents will spot it and either prepare for it or avoid it.

So how about the ideas later on in the game rather then the shortcomings of my playing a fairly niche first few moves? Do you have that knowledge?

Joey Stewart wrote:So how about the ideas later on in the game rather then the shortcomings of my playing a fairly niche first few moves? Do you have that knowledge?

Perhaps you could look at this game. It's 4NCL so perhaps only an hour of GM preparation went into it. The Croatian GM uses the plan supposedly known to Russian schoolboys of the 1950s where White will take on f5, Black takes back with the Bishop and White aims to control square e4 for the rest of the game.

[Event "4NCL Division 1a"] [Site "Barcelo Hotel, Hinkley Island "] [Date "2012.03.31"] [Round "7.16"] [White "Lalic, Bogdan"] [Black "Stewart, Joseph J"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "?"] [WhiteElo "2469"] [BlackElo "2101"] [Annotator ""] [Source ""] [Remark ""] 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.e4 Nc6 5.Be3 e5 6.Nge2 f5 7.exf5 Bxf5 8.d5 Nce7 9.h3 Nf6 10.g4 Bd7 11.Ng3 h5 12.gxh5 Nxh5 13.Bg5 Nf4 14.h4 Bh6 15.Bf6 Rf8 16.Nce4 Qc8 17.Bg5 Bg7 18.Qb3 Bg4 19.f3 Bd7 20.O-O-O Nf5 21.Kb1 Nxg3 22.Nxg3 Bf5+ 23.Ka1 Nh5 24.Nxh5 gxh5 25.Rg1 Kf7 26.Be2 Rh8 27.c5 Bf8 28.Rg3 b6 29.cxb6 axb6 30.Rc1 Bg7 31.Bd3 Ra7 32.Be4 Qd7 33.Qd3 Bxe4 34.fxe4 Ke8 35.a3 Rf8 36.Qe2 Qf7 37.Rgg1 Kd7 38.Rcf1 Qe8 39.Rxf8 Qxf8 40.Rf1 Qh8 41.Qb5+ Kc8 42.Rf7 Bh6 43.Qd7+ Kb8 44.Bd8 Rb7 45.Bxc7+ Ka8 46.Qa4+ Ra7 47.Qc6+ Rb7 1-0

The Botvinnik game whose annotation introduced the "Russian schoolboy" concept.

[Event "Olympiad"] [Site "Munich (Germany)"] [Date "1958.??.??"] [Round "8"] [White "Botvinnik Mikhail M (RUS)"] [Black "Alexander Conel H O'D (ENG)"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "A42"] [WhiteElo "2630"] [BlackElo "0"] [Annotator ""] [Source ""] [Remark "IX-X"] 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.c4 d6 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Be3 e5 6.d5 Nd4 7.Nge2 Nxe2 8.Bxe2 f5 9.f3 Nf6 10.Qd2 O-O 11.exf5 Bxf5 12.g4 Bd7 13.h3 a6 14.O-O-O b5 15.c5 b4 16.Ne4 a5 17.Bd3 Qe7 18.c6 Bc8 19.h4 Ba6 20.Nxf6+ Bxf6 21.g5 Bg7 22.Be4 Bc8 23.h5 Bf5 24.hxg6 Bxg6 25.Qd3 Rxf3 26.Bxg6 hxg6 27.Qxg6 Kf8 28.Qe4 Qf7 29.g6 Qf5 30.Qxf5+ Rxf5 31.Rdf1 Rxf1+ 32.Rxf1+ Kg8 33.Rf7 Rc8 34.Kc2 e4 35.b3 Bc3 36.Kd1 Be5 37.Ke2 Bc3 38.Ba7 1-0

If you check the Alexander game with a modern engine, the engine expresses confidence in its ability to hold the position until quite near the end. So whilst a strong strategy for White, it's not a forced winning one.

In the Bogdan game, taking with the pawn at move 7 is also possible. This leads towards an ending after 8. dxe5 dxe5 9. Qxd8 Nxd8

Don't think you'll find many humans queueing up to take on black's position in that second game! Maybe the position looks worse than it is because Botvinnik's play is so incredibly logical

As for the original question I don't know. They do seem to play c6 quite a bit in sundry kings indian positions - and get away with leaving a weak d6 pawn. Must be very dependent on localised tactics/specific positions how well it works though.

Another way to fight whites system is The Averbach variation without Nc6. Eg 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.e4 e5

Yeah. I have seen that too but not any especially great results with it.... Roger plays that line actually but not to much success against stronger opposition, looking at his history with it.


I am really more interested in a specific idea of sacrificing the b pawn later in the game to generate activity down the queenside and deter white from trying to clamp down and then pawn rush the castled black king

Joey Stewart wrote: Roger plays that line actually but not to much success against stronger opposition, looking at his history with it.

I think you two should have a forum sponsored Modern themed correspondence match to settle it..

Nick Burrows wrote:
I think you two should have a forum sponsored Modern themed correspondence match to settle it..

I would only use the move order 1. .. g6 2. .. Bg7 3. .. d6 if I noticed that it would be met by d4, e4 and c4 in some order and I wanted to incite a Kings Indian, from a player who might otherwise start 1. e4. Otherwise I would play 1 .. Nf6 unless I wanted to avoid the Tromp. There are a number of recent Kings Indian games where I have played the Glek plan of .. e5, .. exd4, .. Re8 and .. Nc6 . I suppose you could get there from the Modern move order, but White would have a lot of other options.

Roger de Coverly wrote:

Nick Burrows wrote:
I think you two should have a forum sponsored Modern themed correspondence match to settle it..

I would only use the move order 1. .. g6 2. .. Bg7 3. .. d6 if I noticed that it would be met by d4, e4 and c4 in some order and I wanted to incite a Kings Indian, from a player who might otherwise start 1. e4. Otherwise I would play 1 .. Nf6 unless I wanted to avoid the Tromp. There are a number of recent Kings Indian games where I have played the Glek plan of .. e5, .. exd4, .. Re8 and .. Nc6 . I suppose you could get there from the Modern move order, but White would have a lot of other options.

Deep

If we ever play, i'll probably play 1.f4 !