Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

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John Moore
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Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by John Moore » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:47 pm

Well, is it so bad to play as Black against the Kings Gambit 1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 ed5 Qd5?!

After 4 Nc3 Qe6 5 Nf3 ef4+ and now after 6 Kf2 Black is not obliged to blunder but can simply play 6 .. Qh6.

One alternative is 5 fe5 Qe5 6 Be2 and now not the stupid 6.. Bg4 but instead 6 .. Nf6 7 Nf3 Qa5 8 d4 Nc6 9 O-O Be6.

Might only be good for blitz but not as bad as suggested by theory, I think.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:57 pm

John Moore wrote:Well, is it so bad to play as Black against the Kings Gambit 1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 ed5 Qd5?!
2 f4 isn't a particularly good move, so lots of replies work.

Engines say a little better for White. Perhaps against the Kings Gambit that's a theoretical near fail.

Anyone knowing a decent or even half decent defence should be OK. I'd put that line of the Falkbeer in the half decent category.

NickFaulks
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:05 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: 2 f4 isn't a particularly good move
Wash your mouth out ( or sanitise your keyboard ).

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:11 pm

3.....Qd5 doesn't have to be disastrous for Black, but it lets White get their pieces out with little trouble.

I hereby confess to having the good fortune of encountering 1e4 e5 2f4 d5 3ed5 Qd5 4Nc3 Qc6??? once :)

(my opponent was a fairly low graded, but experienced, player)
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John Moore
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by John Moore » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:32 pm

Most of my openings books, including those on the Kings Gambit, either ignore the line or treat it as rubbish - I don't have John Shaw's Quality Chess book on the KG, however. I do have a couple of points that I would like to raise. Roger has a view on the Kings Gambit with which plenty of people will disagree. But my point was that this line is by no means clearly worse and I had always thought that it was, as I am sure did most KG players. So there is a psychological element there, if you are playing as Black.

Matt - I am saying that it is playable, not that it is not disastrous and actually White generally gets his bits out without too much trouble in the Kings Gambit, doesn't he.

Perhaps we should await Cyrus Lakdewala writing the Move by Move book in which case you saw it here first. Actually thinking about it, maybe not.

David Robertson
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by David Robertson » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:14 pm

John Shaw doesn't discuss 3...Qxd5 as far as I can see. Not in ch.18 on the Falkbeer; nor in the 560 pages that precede it. He does suggest that the Falkbeer presents White with few problems, but also, being rarely seen these days, that it might be due for a reappraisal - by which I assume he means engines should be turned loose on it.

John Moore
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by John Moore » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:26 pm

Thanks David

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:51 pm

John Moore wrote: Matt - I am saying that it is playable, not that it is not disastrous and actually White generally gets his bits out without too much trouble in the Kings Gambit, doesn't he.
Quite often at a cost in material, though - not in this case :)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

David Pardoe
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by David Pardoe » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:58 am

Some interesting points...
The line suggested by John Moore has a slight Centre Counter Gambit look about it...
Another Openning I encountered many years ago in a schools chess match was the Blackmar-Damler Gambit..
That produced some quite interesting moves, and I survived whites assault on that occasion..
Probably good lines for league chess, but maybe not for 4NCL or other longer play formats..
BRING BACK THE BCF

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Gavin Strachan
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by Gavin Strachan » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:33 pm

used to have a good book by Joe Gallagher on the KG years ago... he was the guru on this opening

Niall Doran
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by Niall Doran » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:47 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
John Moore wrote:Well, is it so bad to play as Black against the Kings Gambit 1 e4 e5 2 f4 d5 3 ed5 Qd5?!
2 f4 isn't a particularly good move, so lots of replies work.
I often thought about taking up the KG with white as a surprise weapon, but I read somewhere that White has a lot of work to do, as Black has a huge number of possible responses. But does Black have more decent responses than in any other opening?

I've also been put off playing e5 in response to e4 because of the KG, so maybe I should just learn one line against the KG and get on with it. Maybe play the KG online with White and see which black defence I like.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:13 am

Niall Doran wrote:But does Black have more decent responses than in any other opening?
The number of respectable responses is high, even by move 2. Whilst immediate capture with 2. .. exf4 is the most popular, with correct follow ups, the "Declined" variations, 2. .. d5, 2. .. Bc5, 2. .. Nf6, 2. .. Nc6, 2. .. d6 are all playable. On the fringe there are the two Queen move variations, being 2. .. Qh4 and 2. .. Qf6. The latter has the idea of snatching the f4 pawn with the Queen.

Compared to the position after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3, Black's main move is 2. .. Nc6 with 2. .. d6 and 2. .. Nf6 being respectable and 2. .. d5 and 2. .. f5 out on the fringe.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:34 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: Compared to the position after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3, Black's main move is 2. .. Nc6 with 2. .. d6 and 2. .. Nf6 being respectable and 2. .. d5 and 2. .. f5 out on the fringe
2.....Qe7 can be considered another "fringe" move there?

(as opposed to 2....f6 which is just bad - even if somebody did get a draw with it against Fischer once)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Nick Burrows
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Re: Kings Gambit Falkbeer with 3 ... Qd5

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:12 pm

I have faced this in a few correspondence games vs Ian Stephens - also of this forum. It is surprisingly solid, but is clearly not attempt to refute blacks play.

As Roger said there are loads of goid ways to play against the King's Gambit, but as Nigel Short said "luckily black can choose only 1!"

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