Chess Player Strip Searched

[Matt Fletcher]

Lets say an unscrupulous 2600 player that wants to get to 2800. He uses the method sparingly, e.g. not for all moves and not for all games, and thereby gradually improves without it being obvious. For all we know, it's already happening.

I've wondered this for a while, and find the idea fascinating (as well as worrying). How much better could a player be if they could call on a computer (say) three times a game - does anyone know of any research into the question? Presumably the gain would depend at least partly on the strength of the player, to know exactly when the computer's input is needed and how to interpret the advice.

I totally agree with Geoff that you wouldn't ever spot it unless you found out how they were cheating - a player who's really good already but picks the right moves to ask the computer could easily get away with it (or indeed may already be getting away with it for all we know).

[Roger de Coverly]

How much better could a player be if they could call on a computer (say) three times a game - does anyone know of any research into the question?

Not research, but GMs have suggested a gain of around 100 Elo points.

I totally agree with Geoff that you wouldn't ever spot it unless you found out how they were cheating -

Concealed cheating with hi-tech devices would be difficult to spot as the Ivanov case may show. Running off to the Gents with a mobile phone should be fairly easy to notice and prevent.

[Matt Fletcher]

How much better could a player be if they could call on a computer (say) three times a game - does anyone know of any research into the question?

Not research, but GMs have suggested a gain of around 100 Elo points.

Interesting, thanks - not quite as much as I would have thought (I guessed it might be 200-odd)

I totally agree with Geoff that you wouldn't ever spot it unless you found out how they were cheating -

Concealed cheating with hi-tech devices would be difficult to spot as the Ivanov case may show. Running off to the Gents with a mobile phone should be fairly easy to notice and prevent.

Sure - the worrying case isn't going to be the mobile phone cheat because that can't be done systematically without getting caught. The problem will be (or is already?!) someone cheating "Ivanov-style" (of course, on the assumption that he is cheating) but only on a "spot" basis rather than for whole games - someone could do that indefinitely without being suspected, because there's no way you could gather enough circumstantial evidence of cheating.

[Angus McDonald]

Geoff. You're a funny bloke. No doubts about it. Most of the time I don't agree with you although I see the humour. This last post was more serious though. Are you OK? Anyway I agree with your last post. Nc6 is just a dumb move for anyone! Even I could have spotted Nc8. lol

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Angus.

Yes I'm OK.

And yes I'm serious. That Nc6 is a smoking gun that needs explaining.

I seen thousands of blunders. I can explain a reason for any genuine blunder.
Humans miss things and have moments of madness, walk into mates in one.
Resign in won positions.

I've never seen a move from a good player not in any form of time trouble
stumble at the last hurdle in a pawn promotion combination like that.

I've seen them play a pawn promorion combo only to get back rank mated.
I've seen them play a pawn promorion combo only to take a Queen and it's stalemate.
I've seen them miss Qa8 ideas altogether.

But I've not seen anything like this.

Even if he had played Nc8 (which you suggested) I would not have batted an eye lid.
It's a playable human move. It too is a pawn dropping blunder but has a plausible reason.
It's a common oversight, it has logic behind it but White has missed a good move.

[FEN "r6k/3PN1pp/8/p7/P1P2PbP/1P4P1/8/4R1K1 w - - 0 1"] 1. Nc8 Bxd7 2. Nb6 {Thinking this wins a piece because if Rd8 then NxB or Rd1 but....} 2... Re8 {That turns Nc8 into a genuine OOPS!}

There is no good move to miss after Nc6.
What did he think White was going to play?

Let us look at the combination again.

[FEN "5r1k/4N1pp/3Pr3/p2Q4/P1P2PbP/1P1R2P1/4q3/3R2K1 w - - 0 1"] 1. d7 {White is offering the Knight up for the d-pawn to promote.} 1... Rd8 2. Qa8 {Now he is offering his Queen for the d-pawn to get through. Did the operator switch off the box here thinking it was an easy win.} 2... Qxd1+ {Only move to prevent, for now, the pawn from Queening.} 3. Rxd1 Re1+ {4.Kf2! and the pawn Queens. Borislav missed it. fair enough. No box sending moves there.} 4. Rxe1 Rxa8 {Now did the desperate Qxd1+ and Re1+ upset White so much that here he had a brain strorm and rejected 5.Ng6+ 5.Nf5 5.f5. and even 5.Nc8 to play....} 5. Nc6

Did he recall Lilov's comments about him saccing the exchange to queen a pawn
and played a deliberate botch. (Or has he been told to play Ng6+ and picked up Nc6.)

Yes I am OK.

I'm a bit miffed, no disapointed because any support I had for the lad has turned sour that's all.

[Angus McDonald]

Totally agree with your analysis Geoff.

I'd also been holding open the small possibility that the lad had taught himself with Houdini and was starting to think like Houdini but this move mid combo has no sense other than an attempted distraction I'm afraid. As you say. Mid combo and having seen it to then unsee it is very very strange. imho

Strange things happen in Chess but there are just too many connected to this young man. I think he's got a camera up his nose and just tilts his head back a little. Either that or he has a drug dealing friend who taught him how to swallow a computer I'd better stop there.

[Chris Rice]

I fully accept that he may be someone who has made a sudden leap in strength, but what would you do if you found yourself in his position?

I would most likely look for another hobby.

According to the latest statement from the Bulgarian chess federation, they now consider the case closed after Ivanov did not show up at an appointment at the offices of the Bulgarian chess federation for some tests (including a lie detector test) where Ivanov was supposed to prove his innocence. It's not clear what will follow, but they explicitly mention how Olympic sports apply an automatic 2 year disqualification for athletes that do not show up for anti-doping tests.
http://www.chessbg.com/news/open/id/857

Further to Paolo's accurate summary above I was kind of expecting the Bulgarian Chess Federation's statement on Ivanov to be turning up all over chess websites in English by now but things seem to have gone strangely quiet. I don't think what has happened is a satisfactory outcome but according to the translation Ivanov did agree to the tests and then failed to turn up.

Here's the statement in full:

"Bulgarian Chess Federation deems the case with Borislav Ivanov closed after the chess player did not appear in the headquarters of the Federation to establish his innocence, where yesterday, 19/06/2013, he was to be subject to "special tests to technical resources (lie detector) to prove objectively with scientific means that the chess player does not use any unfair means in the game.

The tests at headquarters was attended by the president of the Bulgarian Federation Chess, Silvio Danailov, the federation, officials of the Ministry of Youth and Sports, the club Borislav Ivanov Chess "Victory" Blagoevgrad, chess figures and journalists.

In a special declaration of 22 May 2013 addressed to the President of the Board of Bulgarian Chess, Borislav Ivanov said I expressly consent to be subjected to these tests. Borislav Ivanov was informed promptly, personally and through Chess "Victory" Blagoevgrad, where the date and venue of the tests were to be.

The failure of Borislav Ivanov to turn up is a violation of the disciplinary code. You will recall that the Bulgarian Chess Federation is an associate member of the International Olympic Committee, according to whose rules, if a competitor does not appear to carry out a drug test or other controls laid down by the competent authorities they lose racing rights for at least two years without parole.

The case against Borislav Ivanov has been considered and is concluded and we will give no further comment on the case.

Be advised also that:

The Administrative Court in Sofia has disregarded the Borislav Ivanov appeal against the decision of the Bulgarian Chess Federation to the imposed penalty "temporary suspension from participation in competitions under the auspices of the BCF for a period of 4 months due to continuous media and other events that are incompatible with sporting ethics and which undermine the prestige of the Bulgarian Chess Federation and the chess players as a whole "and did not grant the request made by him to suspend the preliminary execution of the decision of the Board of Bulgarian Chess Federation."

From the statement we can see that the original four month suspension actually seems to have gone to a legal court and that it stands and no appeal will be considered. It would also appear that the Bulgarian Chess Federation are now thinking of imposing an automatic two year ban, similar to athletes who don't turn up for drugs tests. However, I don't think the Bulgarians are really following due process here.

To start with athletes are never subjected to lie detector tests and even if they were it is my understanding that the results of these tests are generally not admissable in legal proceedings. No details of any other tests such as comparing his moves to the chess engines and perhaps getting GMs to ascertain his genuine level of ability through problem solving etc have been offered so I guess we would have to conclude there weren't going to be any. Clearly Ivanov not turning up hasn't helped his cause and made it look like he definitely has something to hide and the Bulgarian chess authorities have taken the opportunity to say "we told you he was guilty, this proves it" and then shove the whole problem under the carpet. It's not a satisfactory solution.

The new FIDE anti-cheating committee will have to come up with something better than the way this has been handled.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

From the statement we can see that the original four month suspension actually seems to have gone to a legal court and that it stands and no appeal will be considered.

This seems to be the court in question:

http://www.admincourtsofia.bg/Default.a ... ofia.bg/en

I read a bit about the Bulgarian legal system when I went there for a week or so 6 years ago. The guide book didn't think much of it then ("corrupt" and "inefficient" were the terms used, I think), though maybe it has improved since.

[MartinCarpenter]

Well I worked with a Bulgarian academic (in the UK) for a good while and he had this nice saying from there - 'the law is like a closed gate in the middle of an open field'.... A lot to do with the mindset needed to survive communism I guess

EU membership probably will help - they wouldn't have got in if it was too awful - but I suspect they're naturally much closer to Greece/Italy than (say) Denmark.

As for that bizzare blunder above, it just seems bizzare really. You have to bear in mind that he is unarguably quite a decent player without any hypothetical machine help.

[John Foley]

We should admire the Bulgarian Chess Federation for taking the decisive action which has resolved this curious situation. They have not concluded that the player is guilty of cheating, only of non-attendance at a scientific test, for which he has been penalised.

[Roger de Coverly]

We should admire the Bulgarian Chess Federation for taking the decisive action which has resolved this curious situation. They have not concluded that the player is guilty of cheating, only of non-attendance at a scientific test, for which he has been penalised.

I doubt if it is resolved. I thought lie detector tests were long discredited at least as far as (Western) legal proceedings are concerned.

If they still have Communist era laws, it's probably legal for the Bulgarian Chess Federation to ban players because they feel like it. Beyond that, you get parallels with the Atalik case if they try to enforce an international ban.

[Geoff Chandler]

No.The ban without 100% proof is not on.

That NC6 needs explaining (maybe as I said he was yanking the guys chain because he would not resign.)
But it is not proof.

Let him keep playing till someone twigs how he does it.......if indeed he is.

Anyway I have a new theory. (I'm having one a day.)

The Chess playing program Houdini has metamorphosed into a human form.
That can happen - look at caterpillars and butterflies - you would never believe it until you actually saw it.

The Houdini clone has the real Boris held captive somewhere.

(Now where would a metamorphosed chess program hide it's human copy?)

Well it's called Houdini......so....

Boris is being held upside down in chains in a huge glass tank filled with water.

More on that here:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/blog/blogread ... postid=139

Look at that 2nd picture, and the motley looking crowd off onlookers.
I'd cross the road to avoid each one of them. It looks like he is playing inside a prison.

Have they thrown him in jail because he played Nc6..................OOPS!

[Kevin Thurlow]

"We should admire the Bulgarian Chess Federation for taking the decisive action which has resolved this curious situation. They have not concluded that the player is guilty of cheating, only of non-attendance at a scientific test, for which he has been penalised."

The Lie Detector test is not scientific.

"EU membership probably will help - they wouldn't have got in if it was too awful"

For a horrible moment I read that as ECF membership!

[John Philpott]

Kevin Thurlow wrote

For a horrible moment I read that as ECF membership!

A little earlier in the thread, the following description of the penalty imposed on Ivanov struck a chord

"temporary suspension from participation in competitions under the auspices of the BCF for a period of 4 months.................."

[Mick Norris]

http://boingboing.net/2013/06/24/implan ... phone.html