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Kevin Thurlow · Post by **Kevin Thurlow** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:05 pm

"I'd suspect a medical examination is going to be the only way of getting to the bottom of this."

Not literally I hope.

Stewart Reuben · Post by **Stewart Reuben** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:17 pm

Adding to the gaiety of nations about Ivanov:

http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211 ... 00613.aspx

Christopher Kreuzer · Post by **Christopher Kreuzer** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:11 pm

My latest theory on what this all is:

A new form of chess tourism!

"Turn up, turn up! Watch the Mechanical Turk, er, Mephisto, er, Ajeeb, er Ivanov, take on all comers!! Only Â£/$/â‚¬50 for front row seats. Angry GM and IM displays guaranteed. Try to work out how it is done."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephisto_%28automaton%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajeeb

Hmm. Nothing for Borislav, yet. Kind of like a reverse Turing test:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

Geoff Chandler · Post by **Geoff Chandler** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:44 am

I don't get it?

In the game in the link Stewart posted. Borislav Ivanov - Axel Rombaldoni, Veliko Tarnovo,Bulgaria 2013

This position arose with White to play.

Within seconds we can all see the key features. A pawn on d7 and a weak back rank
and the idea of Re1+ is screaming at us.

White played 42.Nc6? giving up the biggest pawn on the board for...what?

That is an awful move. If that is a computer then he is using a ZX81.
Even an old dog like me can see 42.f5 is a clean kill.
Not to mention the brutal 42.Ng6+

What is going on here. You cannot blame time trouble.
By all accounts he moves pretty quickly.
If that is the play of a regular GM buster then I'm a goose.

The above postion should never have happened a few moves before it we saw this:

Again if I can see the idea (and it's not deep) why cannot he?
It's obvious to any resonable player.
When you have a mate in one threat on then all regular moves are out.

I am not having that he is a good player and missed it as an excuse.
He played 39.Qa8!

We all know what goes on in our mind when we play such a move.
Our mind is totally tuned in to a back ranker.

White played 41.Rxe1 but again this a poor move, ill thought out, it's not a computer move.
There is much better. 41.Kf2! Re2+ 42.Kf1 the d-pawn promotes.

I cannot see anyone defending that play. It's awful Chess.
Is he stealthing (using a box till he has a won game) and playing bad
moves on purpose to lower his match up rate.

And let us not forget, he knows a thing or two about pushing a pawn home.

Remember this from Valeri Lilov's vid?

Borislav played as White Rxe7 (Valeri claimed it was a box move.)
No it's a bog standard human trick based on queening a pawn played by a good player.

If our hero is making bad move on purpose you have to ask yourself why?

How is it being done. Time will tell.

But if you want to beat this guy then fight fire with fire.

Cheat?

No!

Stewart's link made a big deal about 8.Bf4 - and the only person has played it before is...........Borislav Invanov.

And there is his weakness. If he is using a box then it will repeat moves.

So study the games with the strongest computer available to you.

Find the move the computer reckons is the best reply to it's own moves.

Fighting fire with fire.

Here is the full game from Stewart's link.

IM Jack Rudd · Post by **IM Jack Rudd** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:58 am

42.Nf5! is, of course, the way to finish black off in style.

Geoff Chandler · Post by **Geoff Chandler** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:21 pm

Hi Jack.

42.Nf5
Too flashy, it makes it boggy, and takes away idea No.2

Black can play 42...Bh5.

42.f5

Now you have Nc1 in the position.
Akin to American Football, the Knight is the Blocker allowing the pawn to touchdown.

Roger de Coverly · Post by **Roger de Coverly** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:34 pm

Checking with a local Houdini, it prefers the less flash 39 Qxa5 instead of 39 Qa8 which as well as gaining another pawn, also prevents the Re1 tricks. It does however like the f5, Nc8 idea as given above.

Paolo Casaschi · Post by **Paolo Casaschi** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:00 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:What is going on here. You cannot blame time trouble.
By all accounts he moves pretty quickly.
If that is the play of a regular GM buster then I'm a goose.

So... if he plays the best moves, then he's guilty because he's certainly copying houdini. If he does not play the best moves, then he's guilty because he's not as strong as he's supposed to be. You are never happy, a clear case of "damned If you do and damned If you don't".

Christopher Kreuzer · Post by **Christopher Kreuzer** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:08 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Geoff Chandler wrote:What is going on here. You cannot blame time trouble.
By all accounts he moves pretty quickly.
If that is the play of a regular GM buster then I'm a goose.
So... if he plays the best moves, then he's guilty because he's certainly copying houdini. If he does not play the best moves, then he's guilty because he's not as strong as he's supposed to be. You are never happy, a clear case of "damned If you do and damned If you don't".

It is intriguing. I know people can play silly moves at times, but the question of why Ivanov allowed Bxd7 still hasn't been answered. What was the idea behind Nc6? To take the pawn on a5? Maybe he just missed the backward bishop move to capture the pawn? Certainly White has so many pawns it is not the sort of position you would bother trying to play well in. White was five(!) pawns up when Black resigned. Arguably, the bizarre thing is why Rombaldoni didn't resign earlier.

Paolo Casaschi · Post by **Paolo Casaschi** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:16 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:It is intriguing. I know people can play silly moves at times, but the question of why Ivanov allowed Bxd7 still hasn't been answered.

If you make the effort to assume for a second that he might not cheat, then you could conclude that he just blundered.
Similarly, how would you explain the rookie mistakes of Anand and Carlsen in the game they lost?

Roger de Coverly · Post by **Roger de Coverly** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:31 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote: If you make the effort to assume for a second that he might not cheat, then you could conclude that he just blundered.

It's known that he can play chess without a computer engine to assist him. Odd moves in completely overwhelming positions could equally indicate that he had switched the engine off for the final phase of the game. Past history indicates that cheating has been detected by continuing to use the improbable moves generated by some engines right to the end of the game.

Christopher Kreuzer · Post by **Christopher Kreuzer** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:49 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:It is intriguing. I know people can play silly moves at times, but the question of why Ivanov allowed Bxd7 still hasn't been answered.
If you make the effort to assume for a second that he might not cheat, then you could conclude that he just blundered.
Similarly, how would you explain the rookie mistakes of Anand and Carlsen in the game they lost?

I am still undecided on what is going on. I'm not assuming anything, except maybe to play Devil's advocate in some scenarios. It is a real problem. Fast-improving players will get more scrutiny than ever before, and some will just be fast-improving players, nothing more. Some will be players that develop their chess later on. That will be a problem as well. I fully accept that he may be someone who has made a sudden leap in strength, but what would you do if you found yourself in his position?

Paolo Casaschi · Post by **Paolo Casaschi** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:00 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:I fully accept that he may be someone who has made a sudden leap in strength, but what would you do if you found yourself in his position?

I would most likely look for another hobby.

According to the latest statement from the Bulgarian chess federation, they now consider the case closed after Ivanov did not show up at an appointment at the offices of the Bulgarian chess federation for some tests (including a lie detector test) where Ivanov was supposed to prove his innocence. It's not clear what will follow, but they explicitly mention how Olympic sports apply an automatic 2 year disqualification for athletes that do not show up for anti-doping tests.
http://www.chessbg.com/news/open/id/857

PeterFarr · Post by **PeterFarr** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:56 pm

So if Ivanov gives up playing, but no cheating method has been discovered, the worry is that the cheating method (if he is indeed cheating) then gets sold on.

The next person to try it might be a lot more subtle - e.g. Lets say an unscrupulous 2600 player that wants to get to 2800. He uses the method sparingly, e.g. not for all moves and not for all games, and thereby gradually improves without it being obvious. For all we know, it's already happening.

What is to be done?

Geoff Chandler · Post by **Geoff Chandler** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:31 pm

Hi Paolo,

"So... if he plays the best moves, then he's guilty because he's certainly copying houdini."

No. I never said that.

If he had played f5 here (which apparently is the Houdini top choice according to Roger.)
Then no argument from me. f5 is a plausible human move from any good player.
I would not even bother with it.

" If he does not play the best moves, then he's guilty because he's not as strong
as he's supposed to be. You are never happy."

All along I've said he is a good player, but there are best moves, good moves, blunders and Nc6?

You quoted blunders from Carlsen and Anand.
Very very rarely during mid-combination Paolo, that is when the brain is in top gear.
And make no mistake the moment Borislav played Qa8 we are in a combination.
The sole idea of which is to promote that d-pawn.

And you are right. I am not happy.

Four possible reasons for the awful Nc6.

He was taking the mickey out of his opponent for not resigning. (very unlikely.)

He missed Bxd7.

Nc6 threatens d8 and Re8+ but if Nc6 was played intending either then he thought about it.
A good player missed Bxd7 in that position when he has f5 or Ng6+. (no way.)
He played for the position, he valued that d-pawn over his Queen! (39.Qa8).
A good player (and Borislav is a good player) mid combo on a hot Queen saccing roll would not miss Bxd7.

Now we come to any one of two.

If he is recieving it's possible he mid-heard 'Ng6' for 'Nc6' then it makes sense.

He's making it look like he is not getting help by slipping in an awful blunder.
Banned Cheats on RHP have tried this in the past when they knew the Mods were after them
It never saved from getting banned. Nc6 looks indeed like a deliberate blunder.

I was not happy he was banned without evidence and wanted him to keep playing.
I was one of the 'stop Bleating and prove his is Cheating' crowd.
But now I'm not so sure.

Hi Peter

I have been saying that all along.

If this had been some 2600 player then this thread(s) would never exist.

A stealth 2600 user would be impossible to detect.
For a start if he wanted to slip in a 'look nothing up my sleeves blunder.'
he would find a better move than that Nc6.

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