Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

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Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Poll runs till Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:56 pm

Yes
14
70%
No
6
30%
 
Total votes: 20

NickFaulks
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:25 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:01 pm
Sponsorship from tobacco companies in some sports was decided to be evil, but acceptable if they had small logos!
I have to say that, for as long as our government is happy to take huge amounts of revenue from tobacco sales, it has never been clear to me why chess tournaments should not accept money from the same source. If such sponsorship is tax deductible it could be viewed in part as government funding, cutting out the middleman.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:52 pm

I knew it! When the case is made strongly enough that ordinary ECF members, many of them low earners, should not indefinitely be wholly or largely subsiding Michael Adams and Luke McShane, then a sponsor would be found - and of course it wouldn't be a reputable one, because respectable commercial outfits these days don't see any payoff in sponsoring chess.

Gambling ruins people's lives. The advertising draws them in with pictures of cash and lovely women, but that is for the very few. The companies make their money from the many more who succumb to addiction and lose their families and/or homes etc.

Personally I would have nothing to do with them, on that score alone, and I don't care that this activity might be "perfectly legal". I could live if that meant our not sending a team; though to be clear my number one preference would be to send a team with a reputable sponsor.

I know I will be in a minority but am pleased that it is a substantial minority.

Richard Bates
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:24 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:52 pm
I knew it! When the case is made strongly enough that ordinary ECF members, many of them low earners, should not indefinitely be wholly or largely subsiding Michael Adams and Luke McShane, then a sponsor would be found - and of course it wouldn't be a reputable one, because respectable commercial outfits these days don't see any payoff in sponsoring chess.

Gambling ruins people's lives. The advertising draws them in with pictures of cash and lovely women, but that is for the very few. The companies make their money from the many more who succumb to addiction and lose their families and/or homes etc.

Personally I would have nothing to do with them, on that score alone, and I don't care that this activity might be "perfectly legal". I could live if that meant our not sending a team; though to be clear my number one preference would be to send a team with a reputable sponsor.

I know I will be in a minority but am pleased that it is a substantial minority.
Personally I think I would draw a distinction between accepting money from a gambling company and somebody who made their fortune from a gambling company. The motives matter. Ie. Is this “the England team sponsored by PokerStars” or just “the England team” (made possible with the support of the Scheinberg family)? Is it “sponsorship” or “donation”? I don’t see the latter as necessarily endorsement of gambling. I believe even Justin’s objection are more surrounding the position with the US authorities rather than the activity per se?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:52 pm

Solely, I would say, for the purpose of this discussion - if only to cut down my workload, as it were. It doesn't follow that I like what they do, but really it's accepting money off fugitives from justice that I'm concerned with here. Other people can make the case against accepting money from gambling companies as such, and the best of luck to them.
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NickFaulks
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:12 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:52 pm
but really it's accepting money off fugitives from justice that I'm concerned with here.
But from what kind of justice? In this case, one that is bought and paid for by Las Vegas gambling interests.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:21 pm

"I have to say that, for as long as our government is happy to take huge amounts of revenue from tobacco sales, it has never been clear to me why chess tournaments should not accept money from the same source. "

Well, yes. And if alcohol came along now, it would probably be banned on safety grounds, but it does produce a lot of tax revenue. Ironically, if you carry almost pure ethanol on an aircraft, you are breaking "Transport of Dangerous Goods" regulations, unless you buy it from the Duty Free shop, or the airline.

On the gambling front, it seems to be acceptable for sports to take Lottery funding.

Governments are quite happy to deal with unpleasant regimes, if they happen to have oil or if they buy weapons.

I'm not sure you should think somebody bad just because USA has legal battles with them!

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JustinHorton
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:22 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:12 pm
But from what kind of justice?.
The legal kind.
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"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:25 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:21 pm
I'm not sure you should think somebody bad just because USA has legal battles with them!
That's a view, but it isn't one that we heard a lot about when it affected a FIDE President, and I'm not sure "it's different when they're given us money" is a very impressive rationale.
"Do you play chess?"
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:34 pm

"I'm not sure "it's different when they're given us money" is a very impressive rationale."

I agree with that bit. I was thinking of USA trying to extradite some lad who hacked into the CIA or FBI (or similar) computers, presumably as they used "password" as the password. They should have offered him a job.

NickFaulks
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:42 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:25 pm
That's a view, but it isn't one that we heard a lot about when it affected a FIDE President
You certainly heard it from me!

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:32 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:22 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:12 pm
But from what kind of justice?.
The legal kind.
Sorry, Justin, but that's no answer. Let's take the general principle first. Do you mean that, if "justice" means according to the legal system of some particularly oppressive regime and the "crime" wouldn't be recognised as a crime in the UK or most other democracies, we should still be bound to consider that "justice" (of the legal kind in the regime in question) as on a par with most democracies' concept of justice?

Moving to the specific case of the United States, I'll grant that it doesn't yet count as a "particularly oppressive regime" but even successive eagar-to-please UK governments have baulked at individuals being extradited in cases where the US version of "justice" includes the death penalty.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:15 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:32 am

Moving to the specific case of the United States
I wasn't aware that so far we had considered any other.
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:32 am

UK governments have baulked at individuals being extradited in cases where the US version of "justice" includes the death penalty.
I wasn't aware that was the case here.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:49 pm

Just to anticipate any objections - one reason I'm not really going to logic-chop through the potential issues here is that if Isai Scheinberg wants to be considered a victim of injustice here I'd like to hear it, from him.

I've known a fair few Such-And-Such-Is-Innocent campaigns: indeed I've supported some of them. Moreover, as it happens, there is a big one going on right now in the country where I live, with absent indictees who've fled abroad and all. I'm not going to discuss that case here, of course, other than to say that in common with all other such cases, the accused can be heard, very loudly, saying why inthier opinon it is all a fit-up.

I'm not really interested in anybody else's opinion: I'm interested in Mr Scheinberg's opinion and until I see such a thing (which, fact fans, I have twice suggested to Mr Scheinberg's gofers that he produce) then I don't see why we're not just taking money from a fugitive from justice.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

NickFaulks
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:27 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:49 pm
I don't see why we're not just taking money from a fugitive from justice.
You appear to use the term "justice" as synonymous with "the law". I do not believe that Mr Scheinberg would deny that he may have been in breach of US law, even if they had to bend it a bit, and that he made a lot of money out of it.

I say good luck to him - he provided a service desired by millions of Americans and if in the process he took bread from the mouths of the established gambling industry, I couldn't care less. They have more than enough lawmakers looking after their interests.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Should the ECF have accepted sponsorship from the Scheinbergs for the World Team Championships 2019?

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:40 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:27 pm
I do not believe that Mr Scheinberg would deny that he may have been in breach of US law
At the risk of repeating myself, as far as I'm concerned "would" doesn't come into it.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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