World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

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Peter Shaw
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Peter Shaw » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:58 am

Nothing wrong with the rule in my opinion. As long as there is an increment then you should never flag in a position like this - but if a player wants to take the risk of regularly moving with 1 second left as Firouzja was doing then they can't complain when accidents like this happen.

Though it's slightly unfortunate that he suffered for obeying the rules by picking up the pieces he knocked over. I'm sure some players would have just punched the clock instead and take whatever punishment is dished out (maybe just a warning?), which couldn't be any worse than flagging and losing.

Ian Thompson
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:39 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:26 am
There was one example in the Rapid of Nakamura ... knocking a Rook over with his hand when it was on its way back from pressing the clock and standing it up almost immediately. ... Nakamura was given a warning ...
For what? It would be interesting to know what the arbiter told Nakamura he should do if the same thing happened again. As far as I can see, the only legal action would have been to leave the piece knocked over, stop the clocks and call the arbiter.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:52 am

Peter Shaw wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:58 am
- but if a player wants to take the risk of regularly moving with 1 second left as Firouzja was doing then they can't complain when accidents like this happen.
Despite the three pawn advantage, the final position is a draw according to a tablebase. So you can add the danger of playing for a win in a drawn position.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:43 am

I watched the video again (I'm waiting for the guy in Bermuda Shorts to appear.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPysTEW0YZU

They give a clumsy looking Helpmate in 10 under promoting to a Knight (A LSB would also suffice.)

I have two variations in 6 moves without a promotion. Anybody do it in less?

White to play.








NickFaulks
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:51 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:24 am
How about:
If one side does not have mating material, even if it is possible for his opponent to cocoon his king in knights so as to form a corridor for the opponents lone bishop to theoretically mate him - it is still a draw.
:lol:
I expect many of us agree with your general thinking, but the fact that you cannot come up with non-jokey wording says it all. Nobody else can, either.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:17 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:51 am
I expect many of us agree with your general thinking
Increments make the premise simpler. If your flag falls you lose, unless there is no legal sequence of moves in which a mate can be demonstrated.

That was the premise before quick-play finishes. When these were introduced British arbiters and controllers of the 1970s and 1980s modified the automatic loss with the various "unable to win" rules. These were later adopted by FIDE as 10.2 and its successors, when playing for ever with adjournments was discarded.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:37 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:49 am
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:10 am
This has long been the case and tbh I am surprised that people are not aware of it.

There was an example in the recent past in the Women's World Championship where a win was awarded in King and Knight v King and Knight.

http://rules.chessdom.com/appeals-commi ... cko-foisor
Indeed - IIRC K+B and K+B *with bishops of the same colour squares* is deemed a draw as it is impossible to construct a legal mating position, but all other such single minor piece on each side configurations mean the player who flags loses.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Alex McFarlane
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Alex McFarlane » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:29 pm

K + B cannot win v K+ R (or Q)

Alex Holowczak
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:58 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:39 am
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:26 am
There was one example in the Rapid of Nakamura ... knocking a Rook over with his hand when it was on its way back from pressing the clock and standing it up almost immediately. ... Nakamura was given a warning ...
For what? It would be interesting to know what the arbiter told Nakamura he should do if the same thing happened again. As far as I can see, the only legal action would have been to leave the piece knocked over, stop the clocks and call the arbiter.
Probably good man management looking at it now, it seems to stop white complaining. As the game is about to restart, the video captures white asking if Nakamura would lose if it would happen again, to which Takis answered no. It was quite clear to everyone what white was trying to do with his complaint.

Chris Rice
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Chris Rice » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:51 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:36 am
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:49 am
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:10 am
This has long been the case and tbh I am surprised that people are not aware of it.

There was an example in the recent past in the Women's World Championship where a win was awarded in King and Knight v King and Knight.

http://rules.chessdom.com/appeals-commi ... cko-foisor
That was an Armageddon game though with no increment. The problems are when people with no chance of winning play on to win on the clock regardless (even if totally lost and opponent wants a draw). Not something that will happen with an increment in general. If somebody, with an increment, chooses to risk defeat on the clock by seeking victory on the board then I don’t see why the opponent then winning on time is bringing the game into disrepute. Any more than if the same thing happened when a player loses on time with an overwhelming material advantage. And you couldn’t write a law for that.
Here's the video from the Nalchik scandal which starts about a minute in.

NickFaulks
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:30 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:51 pm
Here's the video from the Nalchik scandal which starts about a minute in.
It is wrong to call it a scandal. It was just two players demonstrating why playing without any increment will produce daft results - a lesson which FIDE has learned, even if St Louis hasn't.

The Firouzja debacle may tell us that either two seconds isn't long enough or we need better rules for when pieces get knocked over.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: World Rapid and Blitz Championships 2019

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:57 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:00 pm
So the decade ends with Carlsen topping all three rating lists, and with all three "titles".

Hard to add much to that really.
https://en.chessbase.com/post/fide-ratings-2020-1

That Chessbase article (and various official lists) says that Hikaru Nakamura is still world number 1 in Blitz.

Carlsen is now 29. He is nearly 30. Where did the past ten years go? :shock:

(Carlsen first became world number 1 in the January 2010 list, but has only been world number one continuously since July 2011, so a year and a half to go until he can claim an unbroken decade as world number 1, and just under four years for a decade as world champion - still a way to go to match Kasparov's 22 years of dominance).

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