Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

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Simon Rogers
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Simon Rogers » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:34 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:46 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:05 pm
How reliable is that source do you imagine
I'd say it was completely unreliable. It seems to be cobbled together (something i would do)
but it is perhaps were Simon saw it, or saw a site that that mentioned it.

Like Nepo (move 19.Be3 just been played) have predicted 1-0.
To be honest I saw it on a different site. It listed the Top 10 chess players by net worth. Magnus Carlsen was in the list.
I've seen worse chess sites on my travels particularly in America. I'm sure there is a site in Malta that is quite bad we are all thinking about.

Nick Ivell
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Nick Ivell » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:41 pm

I can see that Nepo had more active pieces, but he never had any meaningful pawn breaks.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:45 pm

Yes the position has always appeared too "symmetrical" to achieve much, barring some major slip up by either side.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:46 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:05 pm
Another anti-Marshall; doesn't look to me as though White has anything.
This time 8 a4 was met with .. Rb8.

I had come to the conclusion that it was inferior because after 9 axb5 axb5, Black was no lomger able to challenge the bishop with .. Na5. Perhaps that isn't so important according to Carslen.

Nick Ivell
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Nick Ivell » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:42 pm

Rather like the Short - Kasparov match, we're going to be learning a lot about wrinkles in the anti-Marshall.

My feeling is that Magnus has a better feeling for these positions than Nigel had.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Chris Goodall » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:20 pm

I think the current format of world title matches is toast. Omniscient computers killed it. It used to be a good thing if you played a move that took your opponent by surprise. Now it means your opponent's computer thinks it's a mistake. There will never be another 14.Nb1 :cry:

In a zero-sum, two-player match, every possible incentive to try to win is an equal and opposite incentive to try not to lose.

Cut the time control to 61+30?

People will say it isn't real chess, but you've got to be better at a thing to do it quickly than to do it slowly, no? Ronnie O'Sullivan is much faster than the average player at the snooker hall, and no-one claims that it isn't real snooker...
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:16 am

Make the match longer (the longer it is the less likely it will be all draws) but reinstate that the holder retains the title in a tied match.

Short matches with both players looking almost from the start at the tiebreaks is definitely *part* of the problem.

(and time for your periodic reminder that Carlsen threw away a win in the opening game in 2018, totally different match if that didn't happen)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

NickFaulks
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:36 am

Chess960.
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Thomas Rendle
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Thomas Rendle » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:11 am

Just let them continue as it is. I don't think there will be 14 draws this time, and if there are then we'll have the rapid tiebreaks.

Graham Borrowdale
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:23 am

I think the problem for me is that the play is of such a high level that I cannot begin to understand it. They seem to be going down relatively obscure sidelines in the hope of finding something the opponent has not looked at, or of giving the opponent enough choices that they might go wrong. And if one of them succeeds, well, I might just say 'so what'. Difficult to blame the players, that is the game they have to play, but, as ever, the candidates tournament, like the old interzonal tournaments, seems to provide more interest for a lot of average players.

Mike Gunn
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Mike Gunn » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:40 am

I think the reason we get so many draws is Carlsen's style of play whhich to a large extent is based on exploiting small advantages and grinding the opponent down. You need to create a sterile position against him and Nepo (so far) is proving rather good at that.

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:13 am

Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:23 am
I think the problem for me is that the play is of such a high level that I cannot begin to understand it. They seem to be going down relatively obscure sidelines in the hope of finding something the opponent has not looked at, or of giving the opponent enough choices that they might go wrong. And if one of them succeeds, well, I might just say 'so what'. Difficult to blame the players, that is the game they have to play, but, as ever, the candidates tournament, like the old interzonal tournaments, seems to provide more interest for a lot of average players.
They've said in the commentary a few times that it's becoming harder to obtain a decisive advantage at the top levels because preparation is even more extensive. It does seem like both players are trying to catch each other out and although they both have already, neither has gained any real advantage out of it. Quite a bit of pussy-footing about and not much else so far. For the good of us spectating, a decisive result should alter the nature of the play -which seems rather tentative so far, and hasn't really achieved much -looking forwards to tomorrow though!

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:16 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:20 pm
I think the current format of world title matches is toast. Omniscient computers killed it. It used to be a good thing if you played a move that took your opponent by surprise. Now it means your opponent's computer thinks it's a mistake. There will never be another 14.Nb1 :cry:

In a zero-sum, two-player match, every possible incentive to try to win is an equal and opposite incentive to try not to lose.

Cut the time control to 61+30?

People will say it isn't real chess, but you've got to be better at a thing to do it quickly than to do it slowly, no? Ronnie O'Sullivan is much faster than the average player at the snooker hall, and no-one claims that it isn't real snooker...
If we end up with a second consecutive match where all games are drawn, then yes they should re=examine things. Hopefully that won't happen.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:41 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:20 pm
I think the current format of world title matches is toast. Omniscient computers killed it. It used to be a good thing if you played a move that took your opponent by surprise. Now it means your opponent's computer thinks it's a mistake. There will never be another 14.Nb1 :cry:

....
or 11 Ng5 or 8... d5 ?

it is a thought, that we generally lack examples of big opening discoveries at World ch level. We see rather side lines (Anand's ... Bb7 in the Meran against Kramnik) or previously unfashionable lines (Kramnik's Berlin wall) having been analysed in more depth than the opponent could have done.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:16 pm

".. it's becoming harder to obtain a decisive advantage at the top levels because preparation..."

As It is a rest day I thought I would solve the draw problem by cutting out any preparation for one player.

The final = 12 games, champions has draw odds. This advantage is countered by:

The Candidates is played behind closed doors. Nobody knows who won.
The champ will not know till just before the start of game one who he is playing when the
challenger pops up out of a brightly coloured box, or is parachuted in via the FIDE helicopter.

What amazes me is that nobody has thought of this idea before.

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