Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

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JustinHorton
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:22 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:21 am
Martin Benjamin wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:53 pm
I could understand the two blunders in the other games - one can overlook Qa3+ and c6 as candidate replies in the respective games. But this is incomprehensible. If you play g3, you know that dxe3 followed by exf2+ is a possible reply and you are forced to consider it.
According to the interview in the TWIC report, he missed Qxg4+
Odd thing to say since the move seems so natural, does he mean that he automatically calculated 24...exf2+ and didn't look at anything else or that he missed the strength of 24...Qxg4+, i.e. he couldn't see how it would be followed up?
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:31 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:22 pm
Odd thing to say since the move seems so natural, does he mean that he automatically calculated 24...exf2+ and didn't look at anything else or that he missed the strength of 24...Qxg4+, i.e. he couldn't see how it would be followed up?
Maybe he assumed that exf2+ was the stronger of the two captures with check. But it is strange. That is the lowest point of the match. Definitely not GM-level there. Anand's performances in his matches against Carlsen look even more impressive in light of this, though I have just looked up that the score in the 2013 match was also 3-0 to Carlsen, so isn't that a higher percentage score loss? (i.e. losing 3-0 in a 12-game match, versus losing 3-0 in a 14-game match?)

(Am referring here to Jack's earlier comment: "I make it the highest absolute winning margin since 1993, and the highest percentage score by the winner since 1910.")

EDIT: Ignore that, am talking rubbish, it was 4-0 to Carlsen in this match!! :oops:

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Nick Burrows » Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:00 pm

Quite interesting that Carlsen did not fear inviting a Russian into his camp!

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:25 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:07 am
All in all, a disappointing match. I don't think Nepo had the belief.
Though one is reminded of, in those days before there was even an official world title, friends of Anderssen telling him he wasn't playing as well as he normally did - "Morphy won't let me" was his laconic reply.

Carlsen is in the top 3 players ever (at least) and it was maybe a previous omission that he hadn't had a really decisive WC win since 2013.
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Nick Ivell » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:34 pm

Magnus now has a claim for GOAT status. I still give Kasparov the edge, possibly because I prefer his style of play.

I think of Magnus as stronger than Karpov ever was - same style, only better.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:28 pm

Gazza still has that 15-year reign as WC in his favour (and yes, even after the 1993 schism almost all saw him as the "real" title holder)

Against that, perhaps, is the arguably stronger opposition Carlsen has had to face overall during his time at the top. And whilst part of Kasparov's aura was that he so rarely lost, he still managed nothing like 125 classical games unbeaten (almost all against elite opposition to boot)

To me that is and perhaps always will be the supreme Magnus achievement, it verges on the superhuman.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:09 pm

Would being World Number One by rating for longer than Kasparov also be something that Carlsen might want to achieve? That will also take quite some effort.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:58 pm

against all that - kasparov had to beat the formidable karpov, several times, against formidable institutioanl challenges. It could be that, in terms of historic levels of achievement, hanging on from 4-0 down in the first match is comparable with Magnus' 125 unbeaten game run?

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:28 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:09 pm
Would being World Number One by rating for longer than Kasparov also be something that Carlsen might want to achieve? That will also take quite some effort.
It's often said that his main goal is to beat Kasparov in terms of longevity as world champion and I do believe he's been quoted as saying it a few times. Can't give specific links or names though but I am pretty sure this one comes up from time to time.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:58 am

A very interesting interview in Russian with Dubov which I've carefully Googled translated as you do. Dubov as we know has been accused of betrayal by the Russians for working with Carlsen rather than Nepo and he's got plenty to say about that. He didn't want to be a "servant of two masters" "The team I was on would not call me or anyone else a servant." and talks bout how Karjakin, known to be very cozy with the powers that be in the Russian Government, was bouncing back and forward from Dubai to Moscow where Karjakin is quoted at one point as telling the Russian government "we will win today"

Then Dubov talks about the strategy that each team adopted

How was the work structured during the games?

The most interesting and difficult thing is always during the matches. Despite the huge amount of preliminary work, the match itself becomes a dialogue between chess players and their teams. A test of strength: we prepared this, and they prepared another. Everyone is looking for an antidote against the opponent's line. All training is divided into white and black games. White you have to try to play to win, which means that fresh ideas are needed. Black's task is not to fight back straight, but to equalize from the opening is excellent, the draw as a result is also excellent.

And on the other side of the board, what was the approach?

A little different. By and large, they tried to punch us in the same line. Apparently, it was a massive attack by a supercomputer, an analytical team and brainstorming. It's a possible approach, but it seems less sympathetic to me. Our armour was strong."

Do you have any suggestions as to why Nepomniachtchi burned out so much?
-
The match for the world championship is a huge tension. In my opinion, Yan played brilliantly in the first five and three quarters of the game. He acted fantastically, at the limit of his capabilities and in no way inferior to Magnus.

The more surprising was the sharp decline.

It's just that Carlsen's main strength is that even on the worst days he does not fall below a certain level. And this level is very high. For Ian, it's not a strong suit. On a good day, he will beat anyone, but on a bad day he will lose to anyone. As mentioned, Jan played in such a way at the end that you don't have to be Magnus to win. This is precisely the difficulty of the match for the title of world champion. There are many parties. At some point, tension gets to you, fatigue affects.

Did Carlsen purposely lengthen the games to knock Jan off balance?

We didn't discuss it, but I think it was one of the elements. Magnus is more hardy, and then there's the schedule. Previously, it was usually a day off after two games but here it was three in a row. Roughly speaking, the idea was to make the game the most challenging for both sides. Magnus was having a hard time too. It's just that one started playing a little worse and the other much worse. That's probably one of the things that makes him the best chess player in history.

Did you communicate with Magnus during the match?

Just a couple of times. I wasn't in Dubai, and neither was most of the team. It seems to me that Magnus likes to isolate himself from unnecessary communication during the match. As a rule, someone from the family and one person from the team, through whom all communication goes, is with him.

Dubov was also asked about whether he would make it to the Candidates himself. He responded:

"This is a difficult task for any chess players, but this is my immediate global goal. Maybe it will work out with the next contender, or maybe it will never succeed. I genuinely feel like I'm doing my best, but there are two factors. You need to be a little lucky, without it there is nowhere. And secondly, there are just a lot of strong chess players in the world."

The interview ended with some claims about Firouzja:

By the way, according to Firouzja. I heard that he was ready to accept Russian citizenship, but our side (Russian - ed) refused this idea. If this is so, then how justified was it to lose the most promising chess player in the world?

"It seems to me that the Russian land is quite rich in talents. Yan Nepomniachtchi is proof of this. Firouzja is certainly a special player, but we don't know what he's going to achieve. It seems to me that for the Russian national team this is not the biggest loss. Our team in any case will consist of very strong players. In a national team, one person is usually not as important as the team. As for the individual title of world champion, in my opinion, it has less to do with national interests. It is better for the national team to win the Chess Olympiad. Of course, in terms of the struggle for the crown, Firouzja has some prospects, but many Russian chess players also have them. Yes, with Firouzja the chances would have been higher, but there we are."

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:01 am

Chris Rice wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:58 am
Dubov as we know has been accused of betrayal by the Russians
It might be as well to say who specifically has made this accusation rather than apply it quite so widely.
Chris Rice wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:58 am
There are many parties
I suspect this should be "games".
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:05 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:01 am
Chris Rice wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:58 am
Dubov as we know has been accused of betrayal by the Russians
It might be as well to say who specifically has made this accusation rather than apply it quite so widely.
Chris Rice wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:58 am
There are many parties
I suspect this should be "games".
I already corrected the games bit but in response to the first question, one notable example is the famous commentator Sergei Shipov who suggested that Dubov no longer has a place in the Russian national team. Here is a Chess24 article with Dubov's response to Shipov's comments.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:12 am

Yeah I saw about Shipov, can't remember who mentioned it. Isn't he notorious for a certain blowhardiness?
"Do you play chess?"
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:18 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:12 am
Yeah I saw about Shipov, can't remember who mentioned it. Isn't he notorious for a certain blowhardiness?
Yeah he's got form, the Chess24 article goes into his previous in some detail.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:22 am

I doubt though that he should stand in as a representative of Russian opinion per se, any more than [say] Nick Ferrari should stand in for British public opinion, even though in either case I have no doubt that they'd speak for a fair proportion of it.
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