European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Apr

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Richard Bates
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:40 pm

Ben Purton wrote:Richard, We appeared to have qualified for the Eastman Cup final, when is it. I could not make yesterday :(
You might have struggled to make the team! ;) Final's whenever Abraham tells me it is...

LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:45 pm

I wondered about 40 Kg3 Rxe2 41 Qf5+ followed by Qf8+ and d7 but he had no time on move 40 to decide :(

LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:08 pm

Round 2 results:

Rd. Bo. No. Name Rtg Pts. Result Pts. Name Rtg No. Group
2 6 16 GM Mcshane Luke J 2683 1 ½ - ½ 1 GM Sedlak Nikola 2556 119
2 32 142 GM Conquest Stuart C 2529 1 ½ - ½ 1 GM Tkachiev Vladislav 2646 47
2 45 62 GM Vuckovic Bojan 2626 1 1 - 0 1 GM Flear Glenn C 2498 159
2 53 70 GM Ivanisevic Ivan 2617 1 ½ - ½ 1 GM Wells Peter K 2487 166
2 83 104 GM Jones Gawain C B 2578 1 1 - 0 1 Chapman Terry P D 2242 282
2 116 312 Heinis Vincent 2122 0 0 - 1 0 IM Houska Jovanka 2419 205
2 108 324 Webb Matthew D 2062 ½ 0 - 1 ½ Denisov Ivan 2300

LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:33 pm

Round 3 pairings:

Rd. Bo. No. Name Rtg Pts. Result Pts. Name Rtg No. Group
3 13 59 GM Iordachescu Viorel 2626 2 2 GM Jones Gawain C B 2578 104
3 52 41 GM Nyback Tomi 2656 1½ 1½ GM Conquest Stuart C 2529 142
3 37 135 GM Le Roux Jean-Pierre 2538 1½ 1½ GM Mcshane Luke J 2683 16
3 57 166 GM Wells Peter K 2487 1½ 1½ GM Sokolov Ivan 2643 50
3 106 159 GM Flear Glenn C 2498 1 1 FM Ermeni Avni 2264 270
3 131 205 IM Houska Jovanka 2419 1 1 De Graaf Dick 2214 292
3 152 213 IM Philippe Christophe 2409 ½ ½ Webb Matthew D 2062 324
3 120 282 Chapman Terry P D 2242 1 1 IM Dembo Yelena 2457 183

Richard Bates
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:25 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:
No, it's unnecessary for us.

But for a major event with sponsors present, players staying locally etc, I have seen that it can actually work. I was fearful beforehand, let me tell you!

I am sure that sponsors expect to see (and are pleased to actually see) two players at every board at the start of play!
I saw it in action at the Dresden Olympiad 2008 and in my opinion it didn't work there.

Teams staying nearby had an enormous advantage compared with those staying some distance away. As the latter group couldn't risk being even a minute late, they had to leave very early to allow for possible travel delays. This severely curtailed their preparation time.

The organisers insisted on blasting loud music into the hall until just before the start of play. If you got there fifteen minutes early, you had the choice between staying at your board and starting play with a headache, or going outside and running the risk of not getting back in time.

Edit: Lawrence, please not!
I agree. To judge the zero default rule simply by the numbers of people who fail to comply with it sets a rather low threshold for judging it a good thing. It is obvious and inevitable that it results in near 100% compliance - it is not as if it leaves players with an option (unless for tactical or other reasons they quite like the idea of forfeiting a game without having to worry about losing rating points).

The one time i experienced it (at Euro Club Cup) I found it a rather depressing experience. In most tournaments the build up to a round is an enjoyable period with its own atmosphere. People mill around chatting, perhaps with somebody who they haven't seen for a long time, perhaps about something they have discovered from the previous rounds game, whatever - one gets the impression of a very sociable place with no hint of tension.

Play with a zero default and all this is gone. 5-10 minutes before the game virtually everyone is sat down. Tension builds up and people start looking around anxiously at the odd board that hasn't filled up (made worse in Plovdiv by a lack of a clock on display). You get the odd comment but basically people sit there in silence, or make the odd nervous joke. The odd "individualist" will make a point of turning up with a couple of minutes to spare and the same repetitive exchange of jokey comments will ensue.

And then at some point (as happened in one round) a couple of people will get it wrong, turn up 30 seconds late, and 4 players' days are ruined (the winners don't even get the compensation of some free rating points which they get under the other draconian rule about mobile phones), and everyone playing in the vicinity will waste 5-10 minutes of their own game being distracted by the inevitable kerfuffle.

Basically a rule with few redeeming features.

LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:02 am

I am pleased to report that chess-results.com has now reverted to using the St George flag for England having changed to the Union Jack/Flag in the last week :?

Sean Hewitt

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:12 am

Richard Bates wrote: To judge the zero default rule simply by the numbers of people who fail to comply with it sets a rather low threshold for judging it a good thing.
For the avoidance of doubt I actually said
Sean Hewitt wrote: ...for a major event with sponsors present, players staying locally etc, I have seen that it can actually work.
Which is quite a different thing to saying that it was a good thing (or not for that matter).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:30 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:Which is quite a different thing to saying that it was a good thing (or not for that matter).
Didn't the FFE try to get the rule removed for the Euros? FIDE said no.

It helps if the arbiters aren't that keen on catching players. In Dresden and that Chinese event, it seemed as if the arbiters were determined to catch people, if only on a technicality. In Khanty, didn't they try to get a "ready to go" signal from each match?

Sean Hewitt

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:53 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:Didn't the FFE try to get the rule removed for the Euros? FIDE said no.
As I understand it, that's correct.
Roger de Coverly wrote: It helps if the arbiters aren't that keen on catching players. In Dresden and that Chinese event, it seemed as if the arbiters were determined to catch people, if only on a technicality. In Khanty, didn't they try to get a "ready to go" signal from each match?
The instructions to us were to be flexible in round 1, but strict thereafter. Consequently, we compiled a full list of instructions which we would announce at the start of round 1. In English and French (and Italian and Spanish if necessary) to ensure all players made it. Of course, the announcements were started at 3pm :D As it happens, everyone was seated at the board at 2.57pm so no problems.

Yesterday, in my playing area (200 players) we were told to start on the dot at 3pm. So we put up large digital clocks on wide screens, and announced 5 mins to go, 4 mins etc. We started at exactly 3pm with all players present.

LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:56 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:Which is quite a different thing to saying that it was a good thing (or not for that matter).
Didn't the FFE try to get the rule removed for the Euros? FIDE said no.

It helps if the arbiters aren't that keen on catching players. In Dresden and that Chinese event, it seemed as if the arbiters were determined to catch people, if only on a technicality. In Khanty, didn't they try to get a "ready to go" signal from each match?
I got the impression from the 2008 Mind Sports in Beijing, 2009 Euro Team & the 2010 Olympiad that it's less of the organisers trying to catch players out and more being helpful and once you are in the building it's fairly clear what is expected. As Roger says there were some strange occurances in Dresden and China with players standing up momentarily or being taken ill and leaving their seats at the wrong moment. I still vividly remember the chaos at the 2009 World Youth in Turkey where there was only one entrance open and hundreds of kids racing down a steep set of stairs to get to their board in time partly because security opened the doors far too late as opposed to players being late arriving. There was also a mix up in the Under 10 boys section in round 1 where it was unclear which board was which :roll:

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David Shepherd
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by David Shepherd » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:59 am

I think maybe the concept of penalty for late arrival is not so bad, but I think that a time penalty would be much more sensible. That way there would be encouragement for players to arrive on time but no stupid default if they were a little late. This would be combined with a default provision after a more sensible period of time.

Thomas Rendle
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Thomas Rendle » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:08 am

I believe starting the clocks is an effective way to impose a time penalty on late comers! :)
More seriously I don't like seeing the zero-default rule in place - especially as Loz pointed out at a Junior event like the World Youth where it's difficult enough as it is to get everyone to their boards.

LozCooper

Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by LozCooper » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:09 am

David Shepherd wrote:I think maybe the concept of penalty for late arrival is not so bad, but I think that a time penalty would be much more sensible. That way there would be encouragement for players to arrive on time but no stupid default if they were a little late. This would be combined with a default provision after a more sensible period of time.
Whats even worse is when the players aren't late but momentarily stand up or stretch their legs etc I can understand that for a world championship match with sponsors etc you want the two players there on time but for other events, especially juniors, it's not easy to get 500+ kids to stay on their seats at a specific time :cry:

I think players have learnt to accept the rule and in most of these events players will be in their seats or close to the board 5 minutes before.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:20 am

Thomas Rendle wrote:I believe starting the clocks is an effective way to impose a time penalty on late comers! :)
At a pinch, you could reinforce this by having a sin bin. So if you aren't at the board when the arbiter says "start the clocks", you have to sit out perhaps the next fifteen minutes before you are allowed to move.

I've never seen the logic behind paying appearance fees and accommodation costs for specially invited players and then potentially preventing them playing. The organisers of major non-FIDE events don't think so either.

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John Saunders
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Re: European Individual Chess Championship Mar 21st - 3rd Ap

Post by John Saunders » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:43 am

Thomas Rendle wrote:I believe starting the clocks is an effective way to impose a time penalty on late comers! :)
More seriously I don't like seeing the zero-default rule in place - especially as Loz pointed out at a Junior event like the World Youth where it's difficult enough as it is to get everyone to their boards.
Totally agree. The zero-tolerance rule is just plain stupid and indefensible. It infantilises players and creates unnecessary extra work for arbiters and team officials. It's just another ridiculous way the Fidementors have found to suck the life out of chess.
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