COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

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Alex Holowczak
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:10 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:When the defaulter also failed to appear on the second occasion, without any explanation, I ruled that he had refused to play the game and forfeited him rather than defaulted him, thus causing the game to be rated. This seemed to me then, and still does, to be the only equitable course of action in the circumstances.
According to this,

Unplayed games

5.1 Whether these occur because of forfeiture or any other reason, they are not counted. Any game where both players have made at least one move will be rated.

This seems to imply that the game you ruled to have been forfeited shouldn't have been rated?

Scott Freeman
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Scott Freeman » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:14 pm

Postponements are not something I like because they raise questions, but where it is done by mutual agreement, then I am happy as long as I feel that nobody is seeking to gain an unfair advantage. Had, for example, Yang-Fan expressed the desire to play Cherniaev last because they would agree a draw or something, I would be less happy. That may end happening of course, but as it was Alexander (who is rather key to the fabric of the event) made the request, I went along with it.

We had a wonderful outcome to one of our Easter events a few years ago after one of the players was ill and missed a couple of days. We managed to arrange for the games to be played the day after the official finish and was able to announce Thomas Rendle as a new International Master at the start of round 2 of the CCF Easter Congress; which he had achieved by winning his outstanding game against player during round 1. It just added a heart warming extra spark to the day for everyone to be there when it happened. Maybe that might happen for Yang-Fan tomorrow! We shall see.

Scott Freeman
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Scott Freeman » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:17 pm

Alex Wrote:
Unplayed games
5.1 Whether these occur because of forfeiture or any other reason, they are not counted. Any game where both players have made at least one move will be rated.
This seems to imply that the game you ruled to have been forfeited shouldn't have been rated?Alex Holowczak


The game is going to be played, so I don't believe that should be an issue.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:19 pm

Scott Freeman wrote:Alex Wrote:
Unplayed games
5.1 Whether these occur because of forfeiture or any other reason, they are not counted. Any game where both players have made at least one move will be rated.
This seems to imply that the game you ruled to have been forfeited shouldn't have been rated?Alex Holowczak


The game is going to be played, so I don't believe that should be an issue.
Sure; it was just my response to David's explanation, which was in turn prompted by Jonathan's question.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:25 pm

Jonathan's original point was that the FIDE rule is in urgent need of amendment. This has now been confirmed by Alex's post. Its effect is that if Chernaiev has another personal circumstance that means that he cannot play the game, and must leave for Russia forthwith, and if Yang-Fan still needs half a point or more from the game, then it seems that nothing could be done - his norm chance would be gone. (Ok, I'm sure that won't happen, indeed I'm quite sure that Yang-Fan will make 2/2 today anyway. But it's the wholly inflexible nature of the rule on not rating these games that I mean to discuss).

David Sedgwick
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:34 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:It's not necessarily the default that matters. A default by not turning up wouldn't be rated, but a default by a phone going off might be. FIDE will only rate a "game of chess", which is - I believe - defined as a game in which both players have completed (made?) one move. So. 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 1/2-1/2 would be rated. 1. e4 1/2-1/2 would not. (1. e4 would probably be 0-0, but that's beyond the scope of your question...)
I've seen this said by others before, but I don't think it's right.

The FIDE Rating Regulations specify that "A game where both players have made at least one move will be rated". Hence this is a sufficient condition. The Regulations don't stipulate that it is also a necessary condition.

If both players are at the board, White plays 1. e4 and one player's mobile then rings, I believe that the game should be rated. Isn't this more or less what happened in the notorious game between Delchev and Conquest at the European Team Championships 2009? According to the pgn file, the game went 1. d4 0-1. To the best of my knowledge, the game was nevertheless rated.

Alex Holowczak wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:When the defaulter also failed to appear on the second occasion, without any explanation, I ruled that he had refused to play the game and forfeited him rather than defaulted him, thus causing the game to be rated. This seemed to me then, and still does, to be the only equitable course of action in the circumstances.
According to this,

Unplayed games

5.1 Whether these occur because of forfeiture or any other reason, they are not counted. Any game where both players have made at least one move will be rated.

This seems to imply that the game you ruled to have been forfeited shouldn't have been rated?
Please see my comments above.

In the circumstances which I described, I stand by the decision which I made at the time.

David Sedgwick
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:38 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Jonathan's original point was that the FIDE rule is in urgent need of amendment. This has now been confirmed by Alex's post. Its effect is that if Chernaiev has another personal circumstance that means that he cannot play the game, and must leave for Russia forthwith, and if Yang-Fan still needs half a point or more from the game, then it seems that nothing could be done - his norm chance would be gone. (Ok, I'm sure that won't happen, indeed I'm quite sure that Yang-Fan will make 2/2 today anyway. But it's the wholly inflexible nature of the rule on not rating these games that I mean to discuss).
In my opinion the situation is not quite as bad as you describe, for the reasons which I gave in my previous post. However, the mere fact that we're having this discussion indicates that you've raised a matter of genuine concern.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:45 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:Isn't this more or less what happened in the notorious game between Delchev and Conquest at the European Team Championships 2009? According to the pgn file, the game went 1. d4 0-1. To the best of my knowledge, the game was nevertheless rated.
Here is Delchev's rating file for the European Team Championship. Lo and behold, Delchev 0-1 Conquest was rated...

Scott Freeman
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Scott Freeman » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:58 pm

A big moment - Yang-Fan has won his morning game and now needs 1 out of 2 against Briscoe and Cherniaev for his IM title.

LozCooper

Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by LozCooper » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:59 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:If Chernaiev has another personal circumstance that means that he cannot play the game, and must leave for Russia forthwith, and if Yang-Fan still needs half a point or more from the game, then it seems that nothing could be done - his norm chance would be gone.
If this had hapened then I imagine a filler, in this case needing to be a titled 2133 or higher, would have been found.

LozCooper

Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by LozCooper » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:59 pm

Scott Freeman wrote:A big moment - Yang-Fan has won his morning game and now needs 1 out of 2 against Briscoe and Cherniaev for his IM title.
Fantastic news, thanks for the update :D

LozCooper

Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by LozCooper » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:04 pm

Round 8:

FM Yang-Fan Zhou (5/6) 1-0 Ioannis Stavrianakis (4)
FM Andreas Skytte Hagen (4.5) ½-½ GM Alexander Cherniaev (5/6)
Jude Lenier (1.5) 0-1 GM Bogdan Lalic (4.5)
GM Aaron Summerscale (3.5) ½-½ IM Jack Rudd (3)
Eoin Campbell (1.5) 0-1 CM Chris Briscoe (1.5)

Round 9:

CM Chris Briscoe (2.5) ½-½ FM Yang-Fan Zhou (6.5)
GM Alexander Cherniaev (6) 1-0 Jude Lenier (1.5)
GM Bogdan Lalic (5.5) ½-½ GM Aaron Summerscale (4)
IM Jack Rudd (3.5) 1-0 Eoin Campbell (1.5)
Ioannis Stavriakankis (4) ½-½ FM Andreas Skytte Hagen (5)

Alexander Cherniaev & Yang-Fan Zhou 7/9
Lalic 6
Hagen 5.5
Rudd & Summerscale & Stavriakankis 4.5
Briscoe 3/9
Campbell & Lenier 1.5
Last edited by LozCooper on Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Scott Freeman
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Scott Freeman » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:56 pm

A couple of quick draws and we have a new International Master (once FIDE officially ratify). Congratulations Yang-Fan. :D

LozCooper

Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by LozCooper » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:12 pm

Zhou,Yang-Fan (2323) - Stavrianakis,Ioannis (2267) [B81]
CCF Easter 2011 IM Norm Coulsdon (8), 21.04.2011

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.h3 e6 7.g4 Be7 8.g5 Nfd7 9.Be3 Nc6 10.h4 Qc7 11.Qe2 b5 12.a3 Bb7 13.Bh3 Nde5 14.0-0-0 Nxd4 15.Bxd4 Bf8 16.h5 Nc6 17.Nd5 exd5 18.exd5+ Ne5 19.f4 Be7 20.fxe5 Bxg5+ 21.Kb1 0-0 22.Rhg1 h6 23.Be3 Qe7 24.Bxg5 hxg5 25.Qd2 Qxe5 26.Rxg5 Qf6 27.Rdg1 Rfe8 28.Rxg7+ Qxg7 29.Rxg7+ Kxg7 30.Qg5+ Kf8 31.Be6 1-0

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: COULSDON "EASTER" INTERNATIONAL 17-21 April

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:20 pm

As pointed out in another recent thread, he'd be a plausible bet for becoming our next GM too.

What will Yang-Fan win over the weekend?

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