Title norms held by English players

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John Clarke
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by John Clarke » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:25 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:I would have thought that being awarded the GM title outright would be very rare. It seems Fischer was one person who achieved this, and Larry Kaufman was another (by winning the World Senior title):

http://www.uschess.org/content/view/8982/500/

I was wondering what other examples exist?
According to P H Clarke (Mikhail Tal's Best Games of Chess, p4), Tal was awarded the IGM title at the 1957 FIDE congress, even though he was not yet an IM and had very few significant international results to his credit. He had however won the USSR championship for the first time earlier that year.
"The chess-board is the world ..... the player on the other side is hidden from us ..... he never overlooks a mistake, or makes the smallest allowance for ignorance."
(He doesn't let you resign and start again, either.)

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:39 pm

When Luke won the World U10 he was awarded the FM title. The fact that he was a master at the age of 8 attracted more media attention than his winning the World U10. I certainly heard about it on a car radio.
Kramnik's application for the IM title was at the same congress as where he applied for the GM title. He was charged only for the latter.
Of course, prior to 1970, there was no FIDE Rating System. In 1957 it was probably by committee decision, as it certainly was in 1950 when titles were first officially awarded.

"What are the four ways you can currently obtain the GM title without achieving any norms?" (Answers: winning the World Senior title, the World U-20 title, becoming Women's World Champion, or reaching the last 16 of the World Cup - which of these is "easiest"?).

I think in my case, the most difficult would be ' becoming Women's World Champion'.
You would think reaching the last 16 of the World Cup would be easiest, but nobody has ever done that who wasn't aleady a GM.

Josh Altman's mother said his being awarded the CM title was extremely encouraging. Perhaps it was less so for me, as I devised the title partly so I could get it. I wanted to introduce FIDE Expert for players over 2000, but received no support.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:24 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote: "What are the four ways you can currently obtain the GM title without achieving any norms?" (Answers: winning the World Senior title, the World U-20 title, becoming Women's World Champion, or reaching the last 16 of the World Cup - which of these is "easiest"?).

I think in my case, the most difficult would be ' becoming Women's World Champion'.
I think winning the World U-20 title might also be quite challenging for you.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:58 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:I think winning the World U-20 title might also be quite challenging for you.
If he were interested I'm sure Stewart would claim that the regulations don't actually specify the number base being used. Base 37 upwards would allow him to qualify.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:04 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:I think winning the World U-20 title might also be quite challenging for you.
If he were interested I'm sure Stewart would claim that the regulations don't actually specify the number base being used. Base 37 upwards would allow him to qualify.
He still would have to win the tournament though...

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:28 pm

Surely, all I would have to do is change my name; shave, for the first time since 1975; wear a toupee; not speak (that's the most difficult) and it would be easy to enter even an U14 championship.

I deliberately provided the possibility for somebody to point out there is no FIDE Rule requiring a person to be female to gain a FIDE woman's title. Perhaps had I waited longer...?
Why would winning a tournament be a challenge? I would simply rewrite the rules, during the game.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:19 am

In a vain attempt to get this thread back on topic, the only norm certificates that I currently have insufficient information to raise are:

IM norms:

Ashton, Adam IM Swiss Championship 2005
Dunworth, Chris Staunton International 1994
Giddins, Stephen IM Lost Boys, Antwerp 1998

WGM norm:

Sheldon, Ruth WGM Vera Menchik Memorial Apr-96

This is a final plea for information before I finish as I.R.O. at the end of the month/year.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:04 am

Sheldon, Ruth WGM Vera Menchik Memorial Apr-96

Surely David Sedgwick was Chief Arbiter for this event? I haven't looked up your valuable list. Presumably she also has a norm from winning the World Girls U18.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:39 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:Sheldon, Ruth WGM Vera Menchik Memorial Apr-96

Surely David Sedgwick was Chief Arbiter for this event?
Not that event, unfortunately. There were a number of Vera Menchik Memorial Tournaments around that time.

The one for which I was Chief Arbiter was held in Autumn 1994. No title norms were obtained.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:48 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:Sheldon, Ruth WGM Vera Menchik Memorial Apr-96

Presumably she also has a norm from winning the World Girls U18.
If tha'ts the case then it's a shame no one told her or any of the previous IROs and International Directors :roll:

Colin Patterson
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by Colin Patterson » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:58 am

Lawrence - There are quite detailed accounts of that '96 Menchik Memorial in Chess Magazine, but probably not a full breakdown of all of her game results (I've not read the articles in depth).

Is that what is needed? Have you contacted Lara? Presumably Tim Wall, the organiser and Jane Seymour the BCF Director who part funded the tournament are not contactable?

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:30 am

It is possible that WGM norm rule for winning the World Girls U18 was introduced at a later date.
To get the Vera Menchik information, look up her games on ChessBase. Assuming all 9 are there, that gives you everything you need to create a certificate. I would have thought it highly likely David Sedgwick, the arbiter would have the information.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:08 am

Stewart Reuben wrote:It is possible that WGM norm rule for winning the World Girls U18 was introduced at a later date.
To get the Vera Menchik information, look up her games on ChessBase. Assuming all 9 are there, that gives you everything you need to create a certificate. I would have thought it highly likely David Sedgwick, the arbiter would have the information.
Do you really think I would be asking for help if the games were on Chessbase? :roll:

David was not the arbiter as he has already stated in this thread. Why you continue to say that he was is a mystery. :?

In answer to Colin, thanks for the info, I've made contact with Lara who has made contact with Tim Wall and I hope to hear something soon. Whilst Ruth no longer plays I would still like any player who has made a norm to have it registered with FIDE, especially those who have more than one norm.

Colin Patterson
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by Colin Patterson » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:12 am

Okay Lawrence. but if it helps at all, I'm quite happy to read the articles and give you those results of Ruth's that are reported. I know she beat two IM's (Muir and Mannion I think) - a great result for a 15 year-old girl and such a terrible loss when she quit chess! Her score was 6.5/9, a half point short of the IM norm that Susan Lalic achieved in that tournament, but definitely a WGM norm according to CHESS.

From memory, either Tim or Charlie Storey was selling disks for a while with the complete .pgn gamescores, maybe to recoup funds they had expended, which might also explain why the games never ended up on Chessbase. If the players received the disk, then Susan, Andrew Martin and others would be alternative sources of information.

Well done for trying to tie together these loose ends by the way. I can't think of too many who would put themselves out to this extent.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Title norms held by English players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:13 pm

Colin Patterson wrote:Okay Lawrence. but if it helps at all, I'm quite happy to read the articles and give you those results of Ruth's that are reported. I know she beat two IM's (Muir and Mannion I think) - a great result for a 15 year-old girl and such a terrible loss when she quit chess! Her score was 6.5/9, a half point short of the IM norm that Susan Lalic achieved in that tournament, but definitely a WGM norm according to CHESS.

From memory, either Tim or Charlie Storey was selling disks for a while with the complete .pgn gamescores, maybe to recoup funds they had expended, which might also explain why the games never ended up on Chessbase. If the players received the disk, then Susan, Andrew Martin and others would be alternative sources of information.

Well done for trying to tie together these loose ends by the way. I can't think of too many who would put themselves out to this extent.
Hi Colin,

Many thanks. Any information you have will be a help. I'm also hoping to hear from Tim (and Ruth herself) but until then let me have any info you have.

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