So did Black play poorly, did White play well? Some commentary is really needed. I can accept that some players can play much better at faster time controls than they do at other time controls. Also, how do you compare human blitz or rapidplay play to computer play? Is that the right approach to take here or not? And are all the games available? A reminder that the time control used was 10 mins + 5 secs increment.Chris Rice wrote:Round 6 White: Ivanov (2303) - Black: Georgiev, Kiril (2657)
Chess Player Strip Searched
-
- Posts: 8838
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
- Location: London
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
-
- Posts: 3418
- Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:17 am
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
Not sure I'm really qualified but it looked like an error free game from White for sure. It would be interesting and perhaps gives us a clue as to whether he is cheating or not to see Ivanov playing to see if there are any hesitations or changes of mind when he moves the pieces. One thing I did notice from the game was move 23 where he played Rg3 when he could have repeated the position with 23 Qh5. How many players of his "strength" would decide to go for broke against a 2657?Christopher Kreuzer wrote:So did Black play poorly, did White play well? Some commentary is really needed. I can accept that some players can play much better at faster time controls than they do at other time controls. Also, how do you compare human blitz or rapidplay play to computer play? Is that the right approach to take here or not? And are all the games available? A reminder that the time control used was 10 mins + 5 secs increment.Chris Rice wrote:Round 6 White: Ivanov (2303) - Black: Georgiev, Kiril (2657)
-
- Posts: 8838
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
- Location: London
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
In a rapidplay game? Probably quite a few. My impression of the game (though I'm not qualified to comment either) is limited to wondering whether White won that f5 pawn, or whether Black gave it up for counterplay, and whether White defended accurately (clearly he did) or whether Black missed some better lines. The impression given is that White stayed in control, and after winning that pawn won with some ease, while Back flailed, collapsed and lost without much resistance. Without knowing, I would have assigned the ratings the other way round...Chris Rice wrote:Not sure I'm really qualified but it looked like an error free game from White for sure. It would be interesting and perhaps gives us a clue as to whether he is cheating or not to see Ivanov playing to see if there are any hesitations or changes of mind when he moves the pieces. One thing I did notice from the game was move 23 where he played Rg3 when he could have repeated the position with 23 Qh5. How many players of his "strength" would decide to go for broke against a 2657?Christopher Kreuzer wrote:So did Black play poorly, did White play well? Some commentary is really needed. I can accept that some players can play much better at faster time controls than they do at other time controls. Also, how do you compare human blitz or rapidplay play to computer play? Is that the right approach to take here or not? And are all the games available? A reminder that the time control used was 10 mins + 5 secs increment.Chris Rice wrote:Round 6 White: Ivanov (2303) - Black: Georgiev, Kiril (2657)
-
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:31 am
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
I've read online that White played 73% 1st choice Houdini-3 moves, and took no more than 10 secs over each move.
Michael Bennett
Hendon Chess Club: http://www.hendonchessclub.com
Golders Green Rapidplays: http://www.goldersgreenchess.blogspot.com
Hendon Chess Club: http://www.hendonchessclub.com
Golders Green Rapidplays: http://www.goldersgreenchess.blogspot.com
-
- Posts: 21322
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
73% isn't that high really. If you were just relaying engine moves, you would get 100% provided the comparison engine was identical to the one in use. I suppose you could have a hypothetical customised interface that selected randomly from a list of top choices. At ten seconds a move, you've got the issue, that if he is using an engine during the game, as to how the moves are communicated to the engine in that period of time.Michael Bennett wrote:I've read online that White played 73% 1st choice Houdini-3 moves, and took no more than 10 secs over each move.
The alternative hypothesis remains that "he got good", probably by intensive training with computer engines and it would appear a highly developed ability to second guess them. In the Trompovsky game, the position reached with that pawn on f5 is reasonably generic, so the idea that a player would investigate with a computer engine before the game, the best methods of play, is plausible.
-
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:13 pm
- Location: Surrey
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
73% 1st-choice moves is still a slight increase from Zadar, the event that kicked it all off (see page 7 of this thread.) The key was that almost 95% there were top-4 choices.Roger de Coverly wrote:73% isn't that high really. If you were just relaying engine moves, you would get 100% provided the comparison engine was identical to the one in use. I suppose you could have a hypothetical customised interface that selected randomly from a list of top choices. At ten seconds a move, you've got the issue, that if he is using an engine during the game, as to how the moves are communicated to the engine in that period of time.Michael Bennett wrote:I've read online that White played 73% 1st choice Houdini-3 moves, and took no more than 10 secs over each move.
The alternative hypothesis remains that "he got good", probably by intensive training with computer engines and it would appear a highly developed ability to second guess them. In the Trompovsky game, the position reached with that pawn on f5 is reasonably generic, so the idea that a player would investigate with a computer engine before the game, the best methods of play, is plausible.
Also, perhaps in the tactically sharp positions Ivanov seems to get into, Houdini at 10 seconds per move may not suggest the same moves as it would after a longer time? I'm not sure if the investigation reported by Michael takes this into account or not.
-
- Posts: 3053
- Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
To do anything with engine comparisons you have to track it quite carefully over time etc. Plenty of games needed. There are a fair number by now perhaps.
It would then help with plausability rather a lot if you could dream an even semi plausible method for cheating that would have a chance of working at this sort of time limit..... Stuff like external operators would I think pretty clearly take too long.
It would then help with plausability rather a lot if you could dream an even semi plausible method for cheating that would have a chance of working at this sort of time limit..... Stuff like external operators would I think pretty clearly take too long.
-
- Posts: 21322
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
Magic glasses with some form of head up display would help with the move notification. How the engine finds out the board position is the issue. If they are playing with DGT wireless boards, it might be possible to hack into the moves being broadcast. But are these boards really that common in the events he plays in?MartinCarpenter wrote:T
It would then help with plausability rather a lot if you could dream an even semi plausible method for cheating that would have a chance of working at this sort of time limit.
-
- Posts: 3418
- Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:17 am
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
I don't think they used digital boards at Plovdiv and I haven't seen him wearing glasses either in any of the photos. There is one scenario I can think of that's reasonable though it would need outside help. If a camera had a good shot of the board (perhaps one of his supposed paramours or bodyguards observing the game with a hidden camera) then someone externally could be feeding him the moves through a simple earpiece. To do it at 10 seconds a move should be possible.Roger de Coverly wrote:Magic glasses with some form of head up display would help with the move notification. How the engine finds out the board position is the issue. If they are playing with DGT wireless boards, it might be possible to hack into the moves being broadcast. But are these boards really that common in the events he plays in?MartinCarpenter wrote:T
It would then help with plausability rather a lot if you could dream an even semi plausible method for cheating that would have a chance of working at this sort of time limit.
I wonder if they could get him to publicly annotate his games afterwards, then we might get more of an idea of how good he really is.
-
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:21 pm
- Location: Cambridge
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
The following analysis was posted in the comment section on http://chess-db.com/public/game.jsp?id= ... 7.21940736
Anonymous wrote:Settings were 12-22 ply depth/45 seconds, hash 256mb
Engine Houdini 103a
Core2Duo 2.00 GH
{ Ivanov, Borislav (Games: 1) }
{ Top 1 Match: 25/34 ( 73.5% )
{ Top 2 Match: 33/34 ( 97.1% )
{ Top 3 Match: 34/34 ( 100.0% )
{ Top 4 Match: 34/34 ( 100.0% )
{ Georgiev, Kiril (Games: 1) }
{ Top 1 Match: 17/33 ( 51.5% )
{ Top 2 Match: 26/33 ( 78.8% )
{ Top 3 Match: 27/33 ( 81.8% )
{ Top 4 Match: 27/33 ( 81.8% )
-
- Posts: 723
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:30 am
- Location: Aylesbury, Bucks, UK
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
AS good as that game seems, it seems to me to be a rather similar style to Capablanca - Simple yet effective. A style anyone could strive for and possibly attain. Playing error-free in complex positions is more disturbing than this game IMO - blitz or not.
Hatch End A Captain (Hillingdon League)
Controller (Hillingdon League)
Controller (Hillingdon League)
-
- Posts: 21322
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
If a camera was concealed about his person or in his clothes, that's one less assistant needed. Resources of chess events don't generally run to having a nurse or doctor, so an examination for hidden earpieces isn't likely to be possible. If the method relies on a third party supporter keying moves, perhaps trying to unmask them is an approach as well as identification of the signalling transmissions.Chris Rice wrote: There is one scenario I can think of that's reasonable though it would need outside help. If a camera had a good shot of the board (perhaps one of his supposed paramours or bodyguards observing the game with a hidden camera) then someone externally could be feeding him the moves through a simple earpiece. To do it at 10 seconds a move should be possible.
I'm assuming he doesn't wear headwear whilst playing. That would be an obvious place to conceal a camera and earpiece.
-
- Posts: 21322
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
That 100% starts to look suspicious. Assume a hidden camera, hidden earpiece and an assistant with an engine and microphone. The assistant has to respond within 10 seconds. Depending on the interface and settings, engines will give a first suggestion almost immediately. Whilst searching to a greater depth may refine the first suggestion, unless there's a horizon effect, unlikely in a relatively simple position, the first suggestion is likely to remain valid as a top four.Eoin Devane wrote:The following analysis was posted in the comment section on http://chess-db.com/public/game.jsp?id= ... 7.21940736
{ Top 3 Match: 34/34 ( 100.0% )
{ Top 4 Match: 34/34 ( 100.0% )
-
- Posts: 3053
- Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
Drop the assistant I think and transmit things to/from some remote system automatically. A human assistant inevitably needs a bit of time to en/decode the signals etc and I doubt if there's really time for that here.
Although automatically interpreting camera shots of chess boards isn't a remotely trivial task.
Although automatically interpreting camera shots of chess boards isn't a remotely trivial task.
-
- Posts: 3418
- Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:17 am
Re: Chess Player Strip Searched
Good point. Perhaps that might explain why he lost in Round 4MartinCarpenter wrote: interpreting camera shots of chess boards isn't a remotely trivial task.
http://chess-results.com/tnr95086.aspx? ... 821&snr=10