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[Paolo Casaschi]

Re the point by Paolo, I suppose the simple answer is that some forms of "cheating" are looked on more harshly than others - as one might expect, perhaps?

I would expect that something clearly forbidden by the rules should not be openly tolerated. For instance, if the general consensus is that pre-arranged draws should be tolerated, why not changing the rule and stop formally forbidding this behavior?

How many times in the last 20 years two players have been sanctioned for pre-arraning a draw? Most certainly more players have been sanctioned for computer cheating. Do you think in the last 20 years there have been more players pre-arranging a draw or more players cheating with a computer?

If pre-arranged draws were tackled with the same approach suggested for computer cheating, i.e. relying on circumstantial evidence because it's fundamentally impossible to prove the act of cheating... how many GM would be disqualified?

[Matt Mackenzie]

That's the point, though - those things don't happen because even if it *is* regarded as cheating, it is also not seen as anything like as serious. Rightly or wrongly.

[Geoff Chandler]

Agreeing a draw pre-game to split the prize money is not cheating if these
are the only two players involved. Both have agreed to the split.
Though what they should then do after agreeing to split the money is play a fair game.
Probably be a good game with no pressure.

Throwing a game so you get a sole winner (who splits the prize with his playing partner) thus
doing a 3rd player out of a piece of the pie is cheating.

[LawrenceCooper]

http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211 ... 10713.aspx

[Paolo Casaschi]

Agreeing a draw pre-game to split the prize money is not cheating if these
are the only two players involved. Both have agreed to the split.
Though what they should then do after agreeing to split the money is play a fair game.
Probably be a good game with no pressure.

Throwing a game so you get a sole winner (who splits the prize with his playing partner) thus
doing a 3rd player out of a piece of the pie is cheating.

Then you should tell whoever writes the FIDE rules.
Your opinion might be different, but according to the current rules, agreeing a draw before the game it is illegal and, if you do, it's cheating. Usually unpunished because, similarly to Ivanov's computer cheating, it's very difficult to prove. There are an handful of examples though in the last 50 years of players sanctioned after playing completely silly games showing a clear pre-arranged intention to draw.

But still, if pre-arranged draws are happily tolerated, why not making it legal to do so?

[David Sedgwick]

... according to the current rules, agreeing a draw before the game it is illegal

Where in the Laws of Chess does it say that?

... if you do, it's cheating.

There's a difference between cheating and infringing the Laws.

To take a simple example, not having your scoresheet visible to the arbiter is an infraction of the Laws. It could hardly be regarded as cheating.

[Roger de Coverly]

Where in the Laws of Chess does it say that?

I suppose you have to rely on the catch all of 12.1

12.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.

9.1a could also be relevant

9.1a.The rules of a competition may specify that players cannot agree to a draw, whether in less than a specified number of moves or at all, without the consent of the arbiter.

[Paolo Casaschi]

... according to the current rules, agreeing a draw before the game it is illegal

Where in the Laws of Chess does it say that?

... if you do, it's cheating.

I always thought pre-arranging results was forbidden. Seems kind of obvious to me. I even remember some cases where players were sanctioned for playing silly games clearly showing a pre-arranged result; this one is famous:
[Event "WchT U26 19th fin-A"] [Site "Graz"] [Date "1972.??.??"] [EventDate "1972.07.15"] [Round "8.1"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [White "Robert Huebner"] [Black "Kenneth Rogoff"] [ECO "A15"] [WhiteElo "2590"] [BlackElo "2430"] [PlyCount "24"] 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Ng1 Bg7 4. Qa4 O-O 5.Qxd7 Qxd7 6. g4 Qxd2+ 7. Kxd2 Nxg4 8.b4 a5 9.a4 Bxa1 10.Bb2 Nc6 11. Bh8 Bg7 12. h4 axb4 1/2-1/2
Before a dig the laws of chess, do you say that is perfectly legal for two players to agree a draw (or other result) before the game even starts?

There's a difference between cheating and infringing the Laws.

To take a simple example, not having your scoresheet visible to the arbiter is an infraction of the Laws. It could hardly be regarded as cheating.

Are you a lawyer by any chance?
I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't wont to argue about words, but if you knowingly infringe the rules in order to get any sort of benefit from your action, that is cheating to me. For example, if two players pre-arrange a draw in order to maximizing their chances to win a prize, that is cheating to me.

[Angus McDonald]

I learned something reading this thread.

I now think agreeing a draw before a game is cheating.

I'm wondering if anyone has agreed a draw before a game and then their opponent made a silly losing move and won? or turned down the chance and still agreed the draw? Either way doesn't seem quite right?

I think in football it's done in certain circumstances but it's a silent agreement if not it would be called match fixing I think.

[Geoff Chandler]

As I said if this involved just two players splitting the prize money then it cannot be viewed as cheating.
Both players have proved their worth by getting themselves into that position.
They should then sit down and hack away at each other in a good fun game.
(also a chance to stick a dodgy opening on their CV to throw off future opponents preparation.)

But if such pre-arranged draw affects another player(s) then it's not on.

Hi Angus,

I know of a case 30+ ago where two players agreed a last round draw before the start of the game.

As the game went on one player chipped on the deal and took the full point.
(no money was at stake...it was meant to let the losing player get away early.)
The losing player offered a draw three times before leaving the board to make his connection and losing by default.

To this day the losing player will not even mention his opponent's name.

[David Gilbert]

I learned something reading this thread.

I'm wondering if anyone has agreed a draw before a game and then their opponent made a silly losing move and won? or turned down the chance and still agreed the draw? Either way doesn't seem quite right?

In Pal Benko's interview with Jeremy Silman he recalls a story of Capablanca playing in a pre-arranged draw and winning the game. When his opponent complained Capablanca said "How can I make a draw with you if you play so badly".

Pal Benko also tells how he offered a pre-arraged draw to Fischer at the US Championship. Fischer needed a draw to win the tournament outright. Fischer mumbled something which Benko took as acceptance. In the game Benko gained gained a good position, but Fischer was making some strong moves and it looked like he was trying to win the game himself. Benko had a problem, should he play on and try to win or go against the draw agreement he thought he had. Eventually he look at Fischer and said "Do you want a draw or not?" Fischer agreed. Benko said "You were trying to beat me! I thought we had an agreement." Fischer replied "You said that, I didn't!".

[Angus McDonald]

I just wonder if that little lack of perception by Fischer way back then was the start of his bigger delusions

Also I'll remember if (I don't think I will) I ever agree a draw with a stronger player to still try and play my best game!

[IM Jack Rudd]

There are all sorts of reasons people pre-arrange draws, and many of them are not "cheating" in the slightest. For example - and this is probably common in norm all-play-alls - two players who are out of the running for norms agree a last-round draw so they can go home earlier.

[Angus McDonald]

In that case 'Jack' I'd be inclined to agree to play a quicker game. I'd see no point at sitting at the board at all just to agree a draw? But! You are right 'Cheating' is too strong a word for it.

[Richard Bates]

It is impossible to use 'circumstantial evidence' to determine if a draw has been pre-arranged. When a draw is obviously in both players interests a pre-arrangement is not necessary. Off the top of my head I think the only times i have ever agreed draws beforehand is in circumstances other than where monetary advantage is an issue eg. need for one of the players to be elsewhere, illness etc.