European Championship - Team ENGLAND

[PeterFarr]

Just the last one, as it's the most relevant.

[Roger de Coverly]

The open team came 22nd last time, compared to the women's 23rd.

22 from 38 admittedly, but the same team apart from Luke replacing Nick Pert.

This is the thread from two years ago.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=3477

[JustinHadi]

Just the last one, as it's the most relevant.

[MartinCarpenter]

Why shouldn't it be? Luke will make a big difference of course, and they might do something good if it all works nicely, but they're still going to be a long way off favourites. Some very, very strong teams in Europe.

Certainly its very nice to see a full strength open team but the finances mean that it is going to effectively come down to a straight choice between that and no womens team at all then well, I'm glad I'm not deciding! Not easy.
(That wasn't the intention this time of course.).

[JustinHadi]

Last time could easily have been a statistical anomaly.

[JustinHadi]

If making targets I'd aim for top 7, which will be tough but potentially achievable.

[MartinCarpenter]

Last time the top 4 were in a mob seeded +-10th but the 5th player was quite a bit weaker - we've got a very thin pool of 2600+ players.

So when one of the top four turned out to be badly out of form a finish like 22nd wasn't hugely surprising. The same team did 9th-18th = at the 2012 Olympiad. (17th on game points.). Having Luke in instead makes it much more of a five man team (and a stronger one anyway) so much more likely to do well.

[Mark Howitt]

I'm pretty optimistic about the team's chances. Adams looks to be in good form. Howell and Jones are both 2 years older than in 2011 obviously and stronger players. McShane can perform well. In other tournaments we've had a comparatively weaker fifth player but we haven't here. In fact, apart from against the stronger teams, you can play any of the four players and have a good chance of winning.

[PeterFarr]

If making targets I'd aim for top 7, which will be tough but potentially achievable.

Last time could easily have been a statistical anomaly.

To be serious, I agree with this, and also Martin and Mark's comments that it's a strong open team.

But I still think its appalling that we can't properly fund a women's team for this, in amongst all the other ECF expenditure. It seems to me to send out a hugely damaging message.

[John Cox]

The open team has the same chance of medals as the women, i.e., zero. Be realistic.

What nonsense some of you people talk. Zero is a pretty small probability, you know.

If Armenia can three times finish ahead of Russia with people like Sargissian making a huge score on board three, and Tigran Petrosian who’s what, 2620?, striking the decisive blow last time on board four, I think it’s a bit daft to say that it’s impossible for a team averaging 2675 to sneak a bronze. If Luke can win the London Classic (barring the football nonsense) then I think he’s probably on the same kind of level as Sargissian, and I wouldn’t see any reason to back Petrosian in a match against David or Gawain.

Like any team competition you need the stars to come together, but if anyone cares to give me even 100-1 against a medal I’ll be happy to make a small investment.

Whereas the women really do have zero chance, assuming it’s right that they’ve now had to withdraw altogether.

[John Cox]

Hell, didn't Germany win this last time, with a team consisting of Arkadij Naiditsch, Georg Meier, Daniel Fridman, Jan Gustafsson, and Rainer Buhmann? It's not even obvious that's a stronger team than ours this year. And the Dutch won a medal a few years ago with Timman winning the decisive game against Russia in the last round as Black in a Modern Steinitz. Is he stronger than Luke?!

Of course Armenia, Germany and Holland all have functional organisations and esprit de corps we can only dream about, but still - that sort of thing can come together very quickly sometimes.

[PeterFarr]

Hell, didn't Germany win this last time, with a team consisting of Arkadij Naiditsch, Georg Meier, Daniel Fridman, Jan Gustafsson, and Rainer Buhmann? It's not even obvious that's a stronger team than ours this year. And the Dutch won a medal a few years ago with Timman winning the decisive game against Russia in the last round as Black in a Modern Steinitz. Is he stronger than Luke?!

Of course Armenia, Germany and Holland all have functional organisations and esprit de corps we can only dream about, but still - that sort of thing can come together very quickly sometimes.

Germany were seeded 10th and won; England were seeded 8th and came 22nd. England were clearly off-form. So yes it's certainly possible even for England to win; I was quite wrong to say the chances of an England medal are zero.

I still think its dreadful that we will have no women's team there, and that is my main point.

[Roger de Coverly]

England were clearly off-form.

As a team certainly. Individually Adams and Jones had excellent results.

[John Cox]

I still think its dreadful that we will have no women's team there, and that is my main point.

Well, were we to say that women’s chess is patronising nonsense and we’re going to withdraw from it on principle, that would be one thing. But if we’re going to carry on with this idea that women are inherently so bad at the game that they need to compete amongst themselves, then I agree it’s a bit of a shame.

But, honestly, we’re talking about 2100-rated amateurs. I actually have no idea what the financial position is, but I think it’s a bit rich for someone in that position to expect to have their expenses paid and a coach provided for this kind of jamboree.

[PeterFarr]

England were clearly off-form.

As a team certainly. Individually Adams and Jones had excellent results.

Yes indeed. Didn't want to highlight the less successful performers!