Kasparov vs Ilyumzhinov: the FIDE Presidency battle begins

[Christopher Kreuzer]

... and with the Laws of Chess changing to make arbiters claim repetition/50 moves (but at 5 times and 75 moves) ...

What?? The laws are changing to allow draws after 5 repeats (instead of 3) and 75 moves (instead of 50)? When was this decided?

[Roger de Coverly]

You can claim a draw by repetition or 50 move rule without a complete scoresheet.

Out of interest, how would you do that? In last season's 4NCL, I had a game where I had less time and it was obvious enough that my opponent was trying to either run me out of time or induce a blunder. Thirty moves or so had elapsed without a pawn being moved or a piece being taken, when I decided at just over three minutes remaining to stop scoring. The game continued, still without any pawns moving or piece captures until I had slightly under two minutes. I then claimed a draw which was awarded when my flag fell a few minutes later despite the protestations of my opponent's team that the position had changed and he was trying to make progress.

[Stewart Reuben]

Alex 11/11 8pm>there's no need for the players in the World Championship match to record their moves at all. The arbiter could easily do it if you still wanted a paper copy.<

I agree with you completely. Geurt offered Karpov and Timman this option when they played their match in the so-called World Championship. They refused because they said they were so used to keeping score. In the third edition of my book on page 186, published 2005, I suggested a complete electronic information system. In place of the clock there would be a screen showing the last several moves played, how many moves before the time control and how much time left. Why even should a button be pressed? Online if there is 3 fold repetition or 50 moves without a pawn move or capture, some computers declare the game drawn. And why not otb? You get the players to sign the scoresheet as is done electronically with the Monroi System.

This never found favour.

[Stewart Reuben]

Christopher K >What?? The laws are changing to allow draws after 5 repeats (instead of 3) and 75 moves (instead of 50)? When was this decided?<

It was decided in Tallin to take effect from 1 July 2014 and has been widely circulated. But you have not got it quite correct.

It continues to be that 3 fold occurrence of position and 50 moves without a capture or pawn move can be claimed. It is for the arbiter to decided whether the claim is correct.

In the new Laws, if the position occurs 5 times in alternate moves, or if there have been 75 moves without a capture or pawn move, then the game is drawn. The arbiter will be expected to step in and declare the draw.
The text is:
9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:
a. the same position has appeared, as in 9.2b, for at least five consecutive alternate moves by each player.
b. the last 75 moves have been completed by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture.

The reason for this is that there have been a number of instances where the players have behaved stupidly and brought the game into disrepute. That includes certain GMs. With a 30 second increment, the whole round can be slowed down to the detriment of the other players.

[Stewart Reuben]

Roger >You can claim a draw by repetition or 50 move rule without a complete scoresheet.
Out of interest, how would you do that?<

Make the claim. It is up to the arbiter to decide whether the evidence supports your claim. Nigel Short could have claimed a draw by repetition in the playoff in Gibraltar. Had he done so, the information was there electronically. He would have got the draw. I was there, but not the arbiter, I did wonder whether the position had occurred 3 times. Had I been the arbiter I would have paid more attention.
Had he been wrong, his opponent would have received an extra 2 minutes. This would have been non-trivial as it was quite a fast playoff and the opponent was very short of time.

In an event with no electronic boards and without an arbiter present throughout it would be impossible to prove. Thus the claim would fail. If the claim were frivolous, the claimant would run the risk of a bigger penalty, or even being defaulted.

If I were running an important event like the 4NCL, there would be enough arbiters so that one would have been observing the later stages of the game you describe Roger. Moreover to run an event like the 4NCL with a Quickplay finish and an inadequate number of arbiters is nonsense. The problem was caused by having rigid rates of play for title norm tournaments (which the 4NCL is). An increment of 10 seconds would have solved that problem. Or 40/90, all in 30 + 30 seconds. In 2013 there is more latitude. I don't know the rate of play this year.

[Roger de Coverly]

In 2013 there is more latitude. I don't know the rate of play this year.

The 4NCL has adopted the rate used in the British Seniors, namely 40 in 100 plus 50 with a 30 second increment from the first move. This has the advantage of potentially shortening the sessions by 30 minutes, but the disadvantage of potentially late finishing times on both the Saturday evening and Sunday afternoon.

[Stewart Reuben]

But very civilised. Typical 60 move game is 6 hours. 120 is 7 hours and that is rather long, but very rare. Perhaps 2 a season.

[Mick Norris]

Russian Chess Federation minutes reveal they are not happy with Kirsan

From http://ruchess.ru/news/all/v_cdsh_prosh ... veta_rshf/

via Google translate

Arkady Dvorkovich .... noted in passing that the FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov has not fulfilled any of the promises in the election

[Christopher Kreuzer]

In 2013 there is more latitude. I don't know the rate of play this year.

The 4NCL has adopted the rate used in the British Seniors, namely 40 in 100 plus 50 with a 30 second increment from the first move. This has the advantage of potentially shortening the sessions by 30 minutes, but the disadvantage of potentially late finishing times on both the Saturday evening and Sunday afternoon.

Are norms still possible under this time control, or is it the issue of games being rated monthly that may cause problems?

[Alex Holowczak]

Are norms still possible under this time control

Yes

or is it the issue of games being rated monthly that may cause problems?

It causes a problem where if you're unrated, you can't earn your first part-rating until the 3-game weekend at the end; and only then if you play 3 rated opponents and score at least 1 point against them. Previously you could get your 3 games over the whole season, but not now.

[Roger de Coverly]

Previously you could get your 3 games over the whole season, but not now.

As always, the FIDE regulations are ambiguously worded, but they talk of interim reporting for leagues spanning a season.

FIDE are notorious for the introduction of rules designed to discourage players and organisers, but I don't think ruling out leagues as a means of obtaining a first rating was actually a desired consequence. If it was, it just adds to the long list of indictments against the current FIDE leadership.

[John Foley]

But very civilised. Typical 60 move game is 6 hours. 120 is 7 hours and that is rather long, but very rare. Perhaps 2 a season.

On Sunday I was trying to win with R+B v R but failed to do so within the 50 moves allowed. The game lasted 7 hours and another game finished slightly earlier. So I suspect there will be 2 a weekend rather than 2 a season.

Didn't feel civilised - no lunch, no tea-break. Totally exhausted and then had to head back straight away.

Moving to a 75 move rule would mean a lot more endings (e.g.R+B v R) would get a result.

The 4NCL scoresheets are not helpful for 50 move rule finishes. How about a continuation sheet specifically designed for the 50 move rule?

[Stewart Reuben]

John Foley >Moving to a 75 move rule would mean a lot more endings (e.g.R+B v R) would get a result.<

But that is not what is happening from 1 July 2014. The 50 move rule remains but, if no claim is made, after 75 moves the game is drawn.

As so often, Roger prefers to snipe from afar, rather than be constructive.

[Roger de Coverly]

As so often, Roger prefers to snipe from afar, rather than be constructive.

What's the answer to the question though? Have FIDE rule changes made it very difficult to gain a rating playing exclusively in a league like the 4NCL? If so why haven't the 4NCL and the ECF publicised this to warn players not to expect to be able to get FIDE ratings by playing in leagues?

[Greg Breed]

Are norms still possible under this time control

Yes

or is it the issue of games being rated monthly that may cause problems?

It causes a problem where if you're unrated, you can't earn your first part-rating until the 3-game weekend at the end; and only then if you play 3 rated opponents and score at least 1 point against them. Previously you could get your 3 games over the whole season, but not now.

Are norms still possible under this time control

Yes

or is it the issue of games being rated monthly that may cause problems?

It causes a problem where if you're unrated, you can't earn your first part-rating until the 3-game weekend at the end; and only then if you play 3 rated opponents and score at least 1 point against them. Previously you could get your 3 games over the whole season, but not now.

I know all this should be in the 4NCL thread so I'll leave that to moderators to move, but to answer the above I thought the following from the 4NCL rules was in force:
Games in the 4NCL are sent for FIDE rating at the end of the playing season. For the purposes of rating, the event is treated as an 11-round tournament and players can achieve 9 or 11 round norms.
Has this changed now?
All games are also sent for ECF grading.
I presume this means that they are all submitted for the July grading list?