Anand v Carlsen

The very latest International round up of English news.
Graham Borrowdale

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:43 pm

So after 28 Bf1 Qd1 29 Rh4 Qh5, could white take on h5 with the rook, ending with the knight on h5, with the idea of Ng7? Sorry, its just in my head, happy to be shot down.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3204
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:46 pm

I saw this comment in a book by Mednis
"The sort of move one sometimes plays after he notes that all sensible looking moves fail"

It seems to me that Anand had analysed that all the lines after Bf1 appeared to be bad so he needed to play something else, so why not give Nf1 a punt. Of course in retrospect in was a silly decision, but possibly very understandable on a human level. I thought Carlsen did a remarkable psychological job of playing moves very quickly to unsettle Anand.

John Cox
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:53 pm

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by John Cox » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:50 pm

After Nxh5 in Graham's line I guess Black can play ...Qd7; Ng7 Qg4, can he?

Anand apparently said in the press conference he 'got excited' when he saw Nf1, with the idea of ..Qd1; Rh4 Qh5 and now Ne3. I don't really understand a word of that, but apparently the engines show some 20-move draw after Bf1, and I don't understand that either. Quite possible as Matt says though that everything Anand was calculating wasn't working - Jon Speelman was having the same problem on ICC.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3204
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:52 pm

Graham,
It looks strange because there is no way White can win after say Nxh5 Qd7 Ng7 Now Black either has a perpetual (with Qg4+) or can try win by getting their Queen to g6 eg. Qf5 Nxe8 Qg6.

Ian Kingston
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:16 pm
Location: Sutton Coldfield
Contact:

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Ian Kingston » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:59 pm

Graham Borrowdale wrote:So after 28 Bf1 Qd1 29 Rh4 Qh5, could white take on h5 with the rook, ending with the knight on h5, with the idea of Ng7? Sorry, its just in my head, happy to be shot down.
Matthew has covered that one.

According to Stockfish, 28. Bf1 Qd1 29. Rh4 Qh5 30. Nxh5 gxh5 31. Rxh5 Bf5 is effectively forced. It then gives 32. g6 as best (evaluation 0.00). It seems that Black can't use the extra material after 32...Bxg6 33. Rg5 because the knight can't move unless it sacrifices itself at f6.

Clive Blackburn

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Clive Blackburn » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:02 pm

Here is game 9 (win as black for Carlsen).


User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 3585
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:03 pm

Clive Blackburn wrote:
Ian Kingston wrote: Carlsen only needs one draw now from 3 games, can't really see that presenting a problem! :roll:
Still be interesting to see how they approach tomorrow's game, though.

Especially if Anand will acquiesce in a quick draw, or make a final effort even if that risks going down 4-zip?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

User avatar
Greg Breed
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:30 am
Location: Harrow, Middx, UK
Contact:

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Greg Breed » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:05 pm

I was looking at
That's about as far as my work-addled brain could manage. Is it still level after that?
Last edited by Greg Breed on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hatch End A Captain (Hillingdon League)
Harrow Captain (Middlesex League)

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2419
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:11 pm

Good posts Greg and Clive.

I do wish you others guys would stop assuming all of the readers can follow a game
in their heads and use at least one diagram.
I can but it's getting cloudy with just a series of post moves one after the other.
It also appears you lot to are getting mixed up.
One diagram is worth a thousand words.

-------------------------------------

Well Anand went for it and at one stage (after 22...b3)



At first glance it was looking like a simple tap in.
Then you looker deeper and see it may not be so easy after all.
That a6 Knight looked out of it.

Many under 2000 players would not have put their faith in the b-pawn and played pawn moves
in front on their King to try and clear the pawn storm and got mated.

28.Nf1?
Stopping mid-attack to play a correct defensive move is common blunder territory.
Anand is human.

Graham Borrowdale

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:12 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:Graham,
It looks strange because there is no way White can win after say Nxh5 Qd7 Ng7 Now Black either has a perpetual (with Qg4+) or can try win by getting their Queen to g6 eg. Qf5 Nxe8 Qg6.
So that would be a draw then? The knight on g7 prevents Qf5.

Ian Kingston
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:16 pm
Location: Sutton Coldfield
Contact:

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Ian Kingston » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:13 pm

Greg Breed wrote:I was looking at
That's about as far as my work-addled brain could manage. Is it still level after that?
Level, but far from drawn - plenty of scope for either player to slip up. The best move (computer-wise) is g6, which isn't easy to find. Second best is Rh3, which is also tricky.

Back to work for me!

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3204
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:17 pm

Graham,
I had assumed so and I cannot see why I would want to use f5, so you are going to have to come up with something a little more concrete to convince me otherwise.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2690
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:22 pm

I think anyone playing Rh3 in that position would be in some trouble with the computer transmited moves police :) Is this some real, very computerish, thing or a typo for the much more believable Bh3?

John Cox
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:53 pm

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by John Cox » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:24 pm

Matt, I think Graham is pointing out that your proposed alternative to Qg4+ and perpetual, namely 'trying to win' with ...Qf5, would in fact fail to Ng7xf5.

Fantastic position in Ian K's Stockfish line; Black's a whole piece up but can only move the queen, and I guess White has a fortress, in effect. Well in fact he's got a bit more than that; he's got h4-h5. So maybe Black has to sacrifice on f6 now-ish. That still seems to leave him a pawn up with no particular reason to think he's not better, though. I understand nothing.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3204
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Anand v Carlsen

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:28 pm

OK sorry John and Graham.
I could therefore get said trying to win position via Nxh5 Qb6 Nxg7 Qb1 Nxe8 Qg6

Post Reply