Olympiad

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Chris Rice
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Chris Rice » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:52 pm

JustinHorton wrote:The only other match still going is supposedly Togo v Lesotho but I reckon that last game must actually have finished.

I like to think there are now hundreds of players clustered round the crucial game in Panama v Yemen...
Panama - Yemen Instructive R&B v R ending in that one.

Update: Black has a won game but looks like he can't remember the technique.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:02 pm

Chris Rice wrote: Update: Black has a won game but looks like he can't remember the technique.
If the defender doesn't claim the draw at fifty moves, presumably the arbiter is aware that he can step in at seventy five.

Lewis Martin
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Lewis Martin » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:03 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The 'mistake' argument supposes that a draw was agreed. If it is not a mistaken result, then it is simply a resignation. I agree that Howell would play on instead of agreeing a draw, but that is not what happened. What happened is that White resigned and we are trying to ascertain whether the computer assessment (at 0.00 at the time) was correct or not. What we really need to settle the argument is for someone to run the position on a computer for a long time and see what the final result is.
What you and/or John Moore were saying something like this: "A mistake surely?" with regards to placing the kings on the centre of the board, and that: "Well it must be since the computer says it is a draw/0.00". (I'm paraphrasing) This was not questioning the computer's assessment, it was questioning the outcome, being in disbelief that White would resign in this position.

If this isn't what you were discussing, then I don't know what it was supposed to be about.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: What we really need to settle the argument is for someone to run the position on a computer for a long time and see what the final result is.
*sighs* :roll:

Either stop looking at the computer, or actually play the position against it!

John Moore
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Re: Olympiad

Post by John Moore » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:04 pm

Lewis - after 58 Re2+ Kf5 59 Kd6 Kg4 60 Ke7 Kg3 61 Kf6 how does Black win. Maybe I am getting very old but I don't yet see it.
Lewis Martin wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:Pretty easy win from here, not too early to resign I'd say. But you know my thoughts about that subject......
Howell's game? Let's take a closer look...



Computer line is: 58. Re2+ Kf6 59. Rg2 Kg5 60. Kd6 Nf5+ 61. Ke5 Kg4 62. Ra2 Nxg3 63. Kf6 h4 64. Ra4+ Kh5 65. Ra5+ Kh6 66. Kxf7 g5 67. Ra3 g4 68. Kf6 Nh5+ 69. Kf5 g3 70. Ra6+ Kg7 71. Kg5 h3 72. Ra7+ Kh8 73. Ra8+ Kg7 74. Ra7+ Kh8 75. Ra8+ Kg7 76. Ra7+.

[Sorry, not sure how to get that in a playable format].

How do you improve on that?
58...Kf6. Oh really? 58...Kf5 for goodness sake.

Look at the bl**dy position. Tell me how White can defend the g-pawn after the black king advancing to it via f5, g4, f3 (and if necessary, Kf2 should the rook retreat to g1). If the White rook then tries to occupy the third rank to prevent this, via a2-a3 say. (e.g. Re2 Kf5, Ra2 Kg4, Ra3) then Black plays Nh6-f5.

As for being able to get the f-pawn, ok so what, that h-pawn is going to promote since White's king is on the wrong side of the board.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Olympiad

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:04 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
JustinHorton wrote:The only other match still going is supposedly Togo v Lesotho but I reckon that last game must actually have finished.

I like to think there are now hundreds of players clustered round the crucial game in Panama v Yemen...
Panama - Yemen Instructive R&B v R ending in that one.

Update: Black has a won game but looks like he can't remember the technique.
I think he might have got in the won position a touch too late anyway.

Both players were IMs.
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Chris Rice
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Chris Rice » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:05 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Chris Rice wrote: Update: Black has a won game but looks like he can't remember the technique.
If the defender doesn't claim the draw at fifty moves, presumably the arbiter is aware that he can step in at seventy five.
Draw, 2396 IM doesn't know the basic Philidor & Lolli positions for that ending. Gives us all hope.

John Moore
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Re: Olympiad

Post by John Moore » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:06 pm

If Black pushes the h pawn White goes to the a file with his Rook and checks the King away

John Moore
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Re: Olympiad

Post by John Moore » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:09 pm

Black's problem is his N on h6 - almost everywhere else would be good and maybe this is still winning. But I had a lesson in a similar ending where I thought I was winning easily.

Lewis Martin
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Lewis Martin » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:23 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
JustinHorton wrote:The only other match still going is supposedly Togo v Lesotho but I reckon that last game must actually have finished.

I like to think there are now hundreds of players clustered round the crucial game in Panama v Yemen...
Panama - Yemen Instructive R&B v R ending in that one.

Update: Black has a won game but looks like he can't remember the technique.
It could also be that he simply doesn't know the correct technique once an opportunity arises. It is not entirely easy to play with very little time. It is something that you need to have practised (self-study) a fair amount to be able to do it quickly enough, it isn't that easy to calculate.

I have looked at a bit about this, but not sure I would be able to do it with less than a minute on the clock. I don't mind trying though, I'd prefer an easier way to win!

Nick Burrows
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:44 pm

Lewis - after 58 Re2+ Kf5 59 Kd6 Kg4 60 Ke7 Kg3 61 Kf6 how does Black win. Maybe I am getting very old but I don't yet see it.
Indeed John, the position is drawn due to the line 61..h4 62.Ra2 h3 63.Kg5 Nf5 64.Ra3+ Kg2 65.Kg4 h2 66.Ra2+ =

Chris Rice
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Chris Rice » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:47 pm

Lewis Martin wrote:
Chris Rice wrote:
JustinHorton wrote:The only other match still going is supposedly Togo v Lesotho but I reckon that last game must actually have finished.

I like to think there are now hundreds of players clustered round the crucial game in Panama v Yemen...
Panama - Yemen Instructive R&B v R ending in that one.

Update: Black has a won game but looks like he can't remember the technique.
It could also be that he simply doesn't know the correct technique once an opportunity arises. It is not entirely easy to play with very little time. It is something that you need to have practised (self-study) a fair amount to be able to do it quickly enough, it isn't that easy to calculate.

I have looked at a bit about this, but not sure I would be able to do it with less than a minute on the clock. I don't mind trying though, I'd prefer an easier way to win!
It is a position that you need to have practiced and it isn't easy with a minute to go I grant you. Its just that it emphasizes a point that Jonathan Hawkins repeatedly makes in his book Amateur to IM that its amazing how many highly players don't know their basic endings. I don't know if you have his book but the exact same ending is on p188 Dominguez-Perez v Judit Polgar, FIDE World Cup Khanty-Mansiysk 2011 where both players struggle to remember the drawing and winning lines and there are loads of blunders and Judit falls over the line eventually to win it. I would have expected a 2400 strength player to know it off by heart but then again I expected Ushenina to know how to mate with knight & bishop vs king.

Andy Stoker
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Andy Stoker » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:50 pm

Adams drew, Sadler won, so Howell's opponent knew the match was lost - little to be gained in playing on in the hope of a draw, when that would still leave them losing the match

John Moore
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Re: Olympiad

Post by John Moore » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:06 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Lewis - after 58 Re2+ Kf5 59 Kd6 Kg4 60 Ke7 Kg3 61 Kf6 how does Black win. Maybe I am getting very old but I don't yet see it.
Indeed John, the position is drawn due to the line 61..h4 62.Ra2 h3 63.Kg5 Nf5 64.Ra3+ Kg2 65.Kg4 h2 66.Ra2+ =

Be interested to hear the views of those whose various relations would have won this with ease. Maybe it's still a win, but the position doesn't look resignable just yet. Oh and Andy, if the Danish guy thought there was the remotest chance of him drawing, he wouldn't have resigned.

Mick Norris
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:24 pm

England v Sweden tomorrow

Brazil v England women

good luck to both our teams
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Lewis Martin
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Re: Olympiad

Post by Lewis Martin » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:25 pm

Chris Rice wrote: It is a position that you need to have practiced and it isn't easy with a minute to go I grant you. Its just that it emphasizes a point that Jonathan Hawkins repeatedly makes in his book Amateur to IM that its amazing how many highly players don't know their basic endings. I don't know if you have his book but the exact same ending is on p188 Dominguez-Perez v Judit Polgar, FIDE World Cup Khanty-Mansiysk 2011 where both players struggle to remember the drawing and winning lines and there are loads of blunders and Judit falls over the line eventually to win it. I would have expected a 2400 strength player to know it off by heart but then again I expected Ushenina to know how to mate with knight & bishop vs king.
It varies really from player to player. Yes, I do have Hawkins's book one of the (very) few I have read, and one of the very many not finished! Dominguez-Polgar does ring a bell.

What are you saying here, that Dominguez should have drawn?

One would like to watch Arkell-Carlsen in a rook and bishop vs rook endgame with R+B for Arkell, with five minutes (too much?) each.

The knight and bishop is a bit of a funny one. There must be a small number of people that actually know the minimum win of knight and bishop endgame but a lot of strong players must surely know this process. (Admittedly not Ushenina). But there is a lesson there, and one I mentioned before, with endgames or even general play: in terms of the amateur, I would say that 2700 opponents are pretty much near impossible to get anything out of.

However even 2500s have a dent in their armoury, they aren't part of the elite for one reason or another and so they have a weakness, and this varies from player to player. In Ushenina's case it was knight and bishop endgame, and not to give your opponent too much respect with regards to a challenging ending and let him/her prove it to play it out.

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