Carlsen - Anand 2014

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Arshad Ali
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Arshad Ali » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:07 pm

This is looking like Round 2 of the famous Balboa-Drago fight ("See? He's human! He's not a machine.").

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:18 pm

Arshad Ali wrote:This is looking like Round 2 of the famous Balboa-Drago fight ("See? He's human! He's not a machine.").
Well, as I was saying....... :)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Matthew Turner
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:05 pm

Anand won this game because he was better prepared than his opponent. I think Carlsen made a strange choice of opening, because he has shown that from a slightly worse position he can consistently outplay Anand. Allowing your opponent to get a pawn on c7 might be perfectly OK, but if it goes wrong it is game over. Carlsen simply shouldn't have taken that risk (in my opinion). I think, and actually hope, that the next game will be a short and rather boring draw then we can have the main event; Game 5, Anand as White presumably confidently playing d4 and Carlsen deciding how to respond. It is actually quite hard to see a response that Carlsen could make that wouldn't give Anand some confidence.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:11 pm

Or possibly - knowing all that, Carlsen might try to hit back right away. What opening would he pick in that case, though?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:23 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:Anand won this game because he was better prepared than his opponent. I think Carlsen made a strange choice of opening, because he has shown that from a slightly worse position he can consistently outplay Anand. Allowing your opponent to get a pawn on c7 might be perfectly OK, but if it goes wrong it is game over. Carlsen simply shouldn't have taken that risk (in my opinion). I think, and actually hope, that the next game will be a short and rather boring draw then we can have the main event; Game 5, Anand as White presumably confidently playing d4 and Carlsen deciding how to respond. It is actually quite hard to see a response that Carlsen could make that wouldn't give Anand some confidence.
My first reaction after 7 c5 was seeing all these uninspiring games that have been played recently after 7...Nh5 where black takes on f4 and very little happens after that, black gets in b6,a5,Ba6 etc but without the complications of today's game. Obviously Anand had ideas in that line but it remains to be seen if Carlsen tries it again. I was certainly surprised to see him head into a theoretically sharp line.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:37 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:If Anand wins, the comparisons will be with his match against Gelfand, where he struck back immediately after his loss there.
Oh no comparison, I think. Today’s win was *much* the greater achievement. Firstly, Gelfand just chucked in his queen. Second, he’s one of my favourite players but Boris is no Magnus Carlsen. Finally, in 2012 Anand didn’t have anything like the history that led up to his win that he’s had here (and in 2013).

I have to say I didn’t think Anand was coming back into the match. I still think the odds are comfortably in favour of him losing over 12 games. That doesn’t take anything away from a fantastic performance today.

The mark of a champion, as somebody once said, is how (or if) they get up after being dumped on the canvas. It will be fascinating to see how Carlsen reacts.


<edited so it makes sense>
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Lewis Martin
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Lewis Martin » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:42 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote: .. but Boris is no Magnus Gelfand.

Who?

Going on comparisons, I think it is a bit pointless to do so. Every challenger/world champions are different and with different approaches to the game.

You could bet that Vishy is better prepared this time compared to last year. His performance in Bilbao springs to mind. I reckon it will be a closer match than people think.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:56 am

I shared the general surprise at Carlsen's choice of opening, especially since ...Nh5 would have seemed quite typical for him. It looked like overconfidence from the champion.

Still, a "good thing" for the match of course. At least we now get to see how Carlsen reacts after a defeat!

1 e4 again today, anyway.

Chris Rice
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:20 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote:I shared the general surprise at Carlsen's choice of opening, especially since ...Nh5 would have seemed quite typical for him. It looked like overconfidence from the champion.

Still, a "good thing" for the match of course. At least we now get to see how Carlsen reacts after a defeat!

1 e4 again today, anyway.
Completely agree with all you say there Jon. It'll be interesting to see that if 1 e4 is played whether Anand replies with the Sicilian and rams the c-pawn up Carlsen like he did yesterday.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:20 pm

It is indeed a Sicilian! :shock: :D

(Not that I could name that g3 Sicilian variation - it seems obscure?)

Chris Rice
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:22 pm

Anand's chopped on d4 though so no c-pawn to ram with any more :cry:

PS opening according to ChessTempo is Sicilian Defence, French variation (B40)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:31 pm

Carlsen has done this before as I remember? Weren't ever going to get a crazy open sicillian and it does seem suitable for the sort of thing Carlsen is after. Maybe would have expected some sort of at least semi surprise for Anand to deal with but maybe that'll come later.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:37 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: (Not that I could name that g3 Sicilian variation - it seems obscure?)
I think of it as the "Adams system". He's been playing it for at least a couple of years.
This game for example
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1733055

If they defer playing .. d5 and play .. Nf6 hitting the e pawn, the idea is a sort of Kings Indian Attack, Worrall hybrid with Qe2 and Rd1. The traditional form of KIA with d3 as Fischer used to play is too well known for White to expect an advantage.

I've been playing it as well, it can lead to some really dull looking positions, perhaps just the thing for Carlsen.

NickFaulks
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:49 pm

I've never really got to grips with IQP positions, but this looks like a very acceptable version for Black. Hope I haven't put a hoodoo on it!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Carlsen - Anand 2014

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:00 pm

NickFaulks wrote:I've never really got to grips with IQP positions, but this looks like a very acceptable version for Black.
According to the engines, there's nothing special for either player. All the moves suggested have approximately the same evaluation. The problem for the side with the IQP is that it's technically bad, but in many positions the activity is sufficient compensation or more. You don't really think of Anand as a technical wizard at defending such positions. Korchnoi on the other hand was prepared to repeatedly take on the defence of such positions against Karpov.

(edit) The current position (move 15) is showing up the fallacy of an assumption that you can detect computer use during the game by matching against an engine. I'm watching at chessdom which has analysis of 4 lines each by Houdini, Komodo and Stockfish. So that's 12 possible choices, but while they agree on some choices, there's still a wide range of plausible moves. So almost any plausible human move is likely to coincide with an engine choice. The position will continue in that manner for several more moves. (/edit)
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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