2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:23 pm

Tim Harding wrote: My interpretation of this is that we cannot do what I did today
What would prevent you posting a series of moves as "here's a game I found on the Internet"? Moves are fact, not subject to copyright.

Still if FIDE's "partner" has this unhelpful attitude to chess promotion, it becomes time for national Federations to demand that FIDE study the small print of the contract and terminate Agon's exclusivity.

Tim Harding
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Tim Harding » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:28 pm

Well as I write for that website I shall definitely NOT be infringing its rules.

If YOU propose to do so then you may find the moderator deletes your posts and suspends you? I take it we don't want the Forum closed down?

Agon are arguing that they are trying to attract sponsors to chess. I will not take sides on this but will see how it goes.

My main worries are that their commentators and software had better be excellent and I fear their servers will not be able to cope with peak demand (openings and the fourth hour of play). I have expressed my views privately to the website editor.
Tim Harding
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Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:34 pm

Tim Harding wrote:Well as I write for that website I shall definitely NOT be infringing its rules.
Do you agree with its interpretation then? If so, then why?

Actually if push comes to shove we should move discussions to the ECF website. There's little or no effective moderation and would FIDE's supposed partner really have the courage to attempt legal action against one of FIDE's constituent members?

I struggle to understand why Agon wants its events to take place in a publicity free zone, but they have form, given the "no spectators" venue for their very first event.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:45 pm

My interpretation of the issue is that chess games are facts, commentary on chess games is creative work. AGON appear to be trying to assert their rights to exclusivity over a fact, which is something on which I'd happily take them on.

Ian Thompson
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:59 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:What would prevent you posting a series of moves as "here's a game I found on the Internet"? Moves are fact, not subject to copyright.
Their attempt to prevent this is to only grant access to their website to people who agree not to republish the games, so it wouldn't be a breach of copyright claim against you, it would be a breach of contract claim.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:05 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote: AGON appear to be trying to assert their rights to exclusivity over a fact, which is something on which I'd happily take them on.
Thinking back on the history of this, the live audience for significant games was first built, in the UK at least, by the Teletext/Oracle system available from 1978 onwards. If you had access to the right technology, you could follow the Battle of Baguio in real time. This contrasted with the Fischer-Spassky match only six years earlier, where live coverage relied on Teletype and Telex machines.

Every so often, "exclusive" rights could cause problems. The 1986 match in London had been covered in real time, but when it moved to Leningrad for the second half, neither the BBC nor Thames would put the moves of the day up on Teletext/Oracle until the late night Thames program had been broadcast. I did find this annoying as I had to resort to taping the program and watching it over breakfast to find out what had happened.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:08 am

Ian Thompson wrote: Their attempt to prevent this is to only grant access to their website to people who agree not to republish the games.
I'd suggest that a set of moves that by a coincidence happened to match a game in the Candidates, is just that, a coincidence.

That's nothing new, it's a previous defence against an attempt to copyright facts.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:12 am

Tim Harding wrote: I just asked the website editor Dylan McClain specifically about this ....
Didn’t he used to be a journalist?

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:21 am

Tim Harding wrote:If YOU propose to do so then you may find the moderator deletes your posts and suspends you? I take it we don't want the Forum closed down?
Who is supposed to close down what now???

Carl can decide for himself of course, but he demonstrated very resilient to bullying threats so far...

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:33 am

Tim Harding wrote:I take it we don't want the Forum closed down? ...

I will not take sides on this ....

Your post was an interesting way of not taking sides.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:44 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:Didn’t he used to be a journalist?
Indeed

Try a Google on "Dylan McClain chess Agon"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/22/sport ... .html?_r=0

Mick Norris
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:57 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Tim Harding wrote: I just asked the website editor Dylan McClain specifically about this ....
Didn’t he used to be a journalist?
:lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Richard Bates
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:03 am

Maybe if there are a large number of Berlins then the candidates will represent the end of the opening because nobody will be able to reproduce them in their own games in future ;)

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:13 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:What would prevent you posting a series of moves as "here's a game I found on the Internet"? Moves are fact, not subject to copyright.
Their attempt to prevent this is to only grant access to their website to people who agree not to republish the games, so it wouldn't be a breach of copyright claim against you, it would be a breach of contract claim.
So let’s say you go on the website and reproduce a few moves. As does Roger.

I, however, have not been on the website. I turn the moves your and Roger have posted into a pgn file. I’ve broken any contract and I’ve not infringed copyright.

And that’s before we get into discussing whether the 'contract' is fair or enforceable in a court of law. Or before we start talking about which court of law. I can imagine America chessers consulting first amendment lawyers on this one.

Richard Bates
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Re: 2016 Candidates Moscow 10-29 March

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:17 am

We just need a couple of forumites to simultaneously play 4 games against each other through the medium of the website. Any correlation between the moves in their games and those occurring at the candidates is purely coincidental. Indeed, even if it were not, Agon clearly cannot restrict the moves played by a couple of individuals in games amongst themselves just because others have got there first.

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