WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

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Mick Norris
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:30 pm

JustinHorton wrote:It's an hour later here: I've followed the last three games to about 1200, 1215 and 1230 respectively, but missed the denouement in each case. Dunno what I'll do on Monday.

Much more gripping than we had any right to expect. I guess the underdog taking the lead in the second half is always a bit like that. In some ways the most dramatic moment wasn't at the board at all though, but Carlsen leaving the press conference.

I don't listen to the commentaries but I do read many of the post-match reports and I think they've served us well with Jon Tisdall the pick of a very decent bunch (Chess Mind, Chess24, Chess.com, Chessbase) although I think he's fundamentally wrong about the demerits of computers. None of these services, though, seems particularly friendly to the smartphone user where their playthroughs are concerned.
I realise the time difference could be worse (e.g. Moscow/Kiev); hopefully Magnus wins and the next one is in Norway :) ; even better if it is over 14 games (or even 16)

I see Carlsen sort of won his appeal; his fine has been halved

The general conclusion is that everyone except Agon have done a good job
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Chris Rice
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by Chris Rice » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:22 pm

David Robertson wrote:Chris Rice has paid $75 for this. We're lucky, kind of
Worth every cent Dave, I have seen two epic games and both the two decisive ones! Its now Black Friday so time for time for some shopping.

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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:26 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:Or you could go back all the way to Capablanca-Alekhine in 1927 :)

Or even just to the last World Championship match in New York when a third of the games were draws in under 25 moves (12, 16, 20, 21, 22 and 25 respectively).



I do [EDIT 26/11 - that was supposed to say, I DON"T] really mind about people saying the world champion match is boring. I don’t understand it particularly but what floats your boat or otherwise. What I do find somewhat annoying is that the criticisms tend to come with a complete lack of awareness of, or interest in, chess history.

E.g. Nakamarua complain of a dull caro-kann in the first Carlsen - Anand match and saying something about Kasparov always knowing that he had to put on a show". Needless to say he didn’t mention the brace of dull flop CK draws that gazza produced against Karpov in Seville.


http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.c ... -xxii.html
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JustinHorton
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:52 pm

Hard to imagine that anybody in any world championship final ever thinks they're under an obligation to put on a show.
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by AustinElliott » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:00 pm

Mick Norris wrote:I'm not interested in players bashing out 20 moves of theory, particularly in sharp lines that peter out to draws at move 30
The Anand-Gelfand match (at least the long play games) springs to mind...

Mick Norris
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:02 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
David Robertson wrote:Chris Rice has paid $75 for this. We're lucky, kind of
Worth every cent Dave, I have seen two epic games and both the two decisive ones! Its now Black Friday so time for time for some shopping.
Are you going again, or can we put our money on 2 draws as you won't be there?
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by AustinElliott » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:08 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: ... during that period of shuffling pieces back and forth, it was very difficult to understand what was going on and how to judge the optimum placement of the pieces and how it makes a difference many moves later - clearly some players have a knack for this, but I doubt many 'ordinary' chess players do.)
I’m sure you’re quite right - in your assessment of the game and your assessment of ordinary players’ skills.
This was essentially why I was asking last night (paraphrasing):
"If Capablanca had Magnus' position, where would he want to put the White pieces before playing b5?"
I was thinking a bit of the famous story of the masters at some 1930s tournament debating an ending in analysis, and asking Capa if it was winnable. The story goes that he simply shoved the pieces onto the squares where they would need to be for the player with advantage to be able to convert it.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:03 pm

Minor curiosity: it seems that Karjakin will gain Elo rating points at the end of the match, even if losing the last two games. Similarly Carlsen will certainly lose Elo rating points, unless I missed some fine print in the rules.

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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by David Robertson » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:15 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:Karjakin will gain Elo rating points at the end of the match, even if losing the last two games. Similarly Carlsen will certainly lose Elo rating points
Don't fret. Carlsen will cope

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:10 pm

There used to be a rule that tournament winners could not lose rating points - is it still extant?

Don't think matches were ever covered by it, though.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:14 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:There used to be a rule that tournament winners could not lose rating points - is it still extant?
No.


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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:24 pm

Some of those articles by a Patrick Redmond are quite amusing to read. In the one linked above, I particularly like how he got the first name of Karjakin wrong, giving his name as "Andrey Karjakin"...

http://deadspin.com/chess-grandmaster-s ... 1789314747

"the two pale chess dudes looked strained throughout the match"

Another chess article from deadspin, by a Dave McKenna this time, from 2014:

http://deadspin.com/the-most-compelling ... 1627069245

"If you're not up on your FIDE ratings, this is something like 2006-vintage Roger Federer doing a tennis residency in Toledo. "

"If you're not up on your chess history, either, this is something like a brainy and elongated version of the 1979 Final Four. "

(oh dear)

"he is young and hunky in a down-from-Asgard-and-hanging-with-the-mortals sort of way"

Interesting conclusion:

"He has not only defied the homogenization of style in the age of the computer; he has used that homogeneity against itself. That's where it's at."

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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by John McKenna » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:12 am

Thanks for bringing us those weighty words, above, Chris.

Dave's obviously swallowed a chip off the Blarney stone and it's gone to his head.

Patrick was more peaty (down-to-earth) and at least he didn't say that "the two pale chess dudes looked" stoned...

If only Seamus was still around to pen a poem about this titanic struggle in a glass cubicle.
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Chris Rice
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Re: WC Match 2016 - New York 10-30 November

Post by Chris Rice » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:28 pm

Thanks for the nice comments on my round 8 report. In response, here’s one for Game 10 which is unfortunately the last game I’ll be watching live. I wondered what the odds were on my turning up for the only two decisive games so far and Jack kindly worked it out as 148-1. If I had put $1 on that I’d have got back $149 curiously only $1 difference from the amount I paid for the two tickets which for some reason is oddly satisfying.
Let’s just pop Game 10 up so the following comments make more sense:



Watching Game 10 live at the venue was a very different experience to that of Game 8. For your $75 you don’t just see the moves of the game, you get to experience them with a couple of hundred people of all different kinds of strength and it makes you think about your own game.
For example when Karjakin played 12…Qf6 early doors the high level view of it was that as he had given up the chance to play …f5 then White was ok. However, a lot of the audience who had obviously been brought up on the same rubbish as I was when I was a kid started to believe that as Karjakin had more pieces over on the kingside then he was the one doing the attacking and an attack on the kingside must be met by a strike in the centre. So comments of d4 “gotta come soon” “it’s his only chance to reverse the kingside attack” (whatever that means) came thick and fast. I wanted to tell them that d4 would have done nothing to solve White’s issues and only lead to a weakening of the e-pawn, no more control over the d-file than before and how would they follow up? However, I said nothing. As far above them in Elo terms as I was, I was just as far below Carlsen, so if Carlsen had then played d4 I’d have looked a right mug. A security guard asked me what I thought was a good move in another position. I said it was complex (always a great get out clause for not having a clue what’s going on) but Black might try such and such. The response was “well if he tries that buddy ahm just gonna eat that paaarn”, think I might use that comment in future.
Of course, sitting there watching one game it’s an ideal opportunity to guess what the next move might be and come up with a plan. Must improve your game, at least that’s the theory. When Karjakin was thinking about his 15th move I was thinking that if had that position I would want to stop a possible Nd5 with ...c6 and in addition I would then be looking to play…d5 or …b5 gaining space and squares. So, when Karjakin played this move I was proud of myself that I could play this game after all. Immediately Carlsen played 16 Bb3, you wouldn’t have thought that was a hard move to see but I just sat there not having a clue about what to do next. Karjakin followed up with 17…a5. I understood (or at least thought I did) that White would go a4 (which he did) and then Black goes …Be6 challenging the unprotected bishop. What do I do then I thought? Well probably Nd2 or maybe Bc2, not sure exactly what I’m doing there but the one move I obviously can’t play is 19 Bxe6. So Carlsen plays 19 Bxe6 and everyone including Judit and Nepo are shocked. To be honest I thought it was just a losing move but Judit explained it was a forced draw but then it turned out it may not have been a forced draw but why did Carlsen do it anyway etc etc
So Karkakin plays 20…d5 and I and the rest of the audience just sat there like a load of deer caught in the headlights, with no idea what was going on. Well, guess Carlsen’s forced to go f3, I thought, Judit agreed, at least I got something right I thought, then Carlsen plays 21 Qh5. I think the Chess24 report said the audience were bewildered. Bewildered? That’s a bloody understatement, we all wanted to scream out “we don’t understand! We don’t understand! Please tell us what’s happening!” Judit, now firmly established as out surrogate mother, is now raving about Carlsen’s position, Karjakin was wrong to turn down the draw when he had it, Carlsen’s going to win easily now according to all. I couldn’t see how but by now I knew my place. The game continued with intricate manouevres that were clearly beyond my understanding.
Carlsen played on and on eventually wearing Karjakin down but even when the computer assessment shot up to +4 many in the audience couldn’t tell you why.
Great stuff and I really enjoyed it. Why? Couldn’t really tell you. Perhaps chess is really about survival, the fog of war, hanging on for grim death, winning by a thread or whatever, it doesn’t matter it was just brilliant being part of the experience.

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