2016 Olympiad - Baku

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MartinCarpenter
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:30 pm

For a lot of the players it happens naturally when they come to check how the match stands via a score sheet.

The odd hold out I guess you just tell them if they need to win or not, or maybe how much we need from the remaining X games. The latter might I suppose be modestly legally arguable although the spirit is very similar.

Dewi Jones
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Dewi Jones » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:07 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Thanks. Were there any language problems, or was it necessary to ensure the teams had someone able to speak English? Or was it a case of players whose first language is not English knowing key English phrases?
No, there weren't any language problems. Everyone I needed to speak to had an adequate understanding of English.
The Russian arbiter in charge of Wales-Guyana wasn't able to manage any English other than "Speak Russian?" :oops:
But did he Siarad Cymraeg? ;-)

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:15 pm

Dewi Jones wrote:
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
No, there weren't any language problems. Everyone I needed to speak to had an adequate understanding of English.
The Russian arbiter in charge of Wales-Guyana wasn't able to manage any English other than "Speak Russian?" :oops:
But did he Siarad Cymraeg? ;-)
As fluently me as me probably :oops:

Brian Towers
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Brian Towers » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:30 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
MartinCarpenter wrote:From what I remember of the relevant county matches, most likely saying what an 8-8 draw would most likely mean.
Yes, but how do you get the information across? Do you interrupt the game to make an announcement?
On the 17th of October 1973 I sat down for the first time at board 6 (bottom board) for Sunderland YMCA 1. About a dozen moves into the game Ken Neat, the captain, squeezed my shoulder and whispered into my ear "Brian, just so you know. Your opponent's grade is 110". I didn't think I'd been playing particularly passively but I got the message - a draw was not what was expected.

That was the 47th game in my first scorebook and that moment clearly marked the moment that I first had a bite of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil regarding gradings because none of my earlier games record my opponent's grade and nearly all of the later ones do, even if it is only "(u)" for ungraded.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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JustinHorton
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:21 pm

Nice piece by Fiona Steli-Antoni touching on some of the controversies experienced in Baku
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NickFaulks
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:02 pm

JustinHorton wrote:Nice piece by Fiona Steli-Antoni touching on some of the controversies experienced in Baku
I agree generally with everything she says. The food in my hotel was excellent, as in my team's and evidently in hers, but we did hear different stories from outlying areas.

The absurd tiebreak system is a well known horror story. Some years ago the eminent Chairmen of every technically informed Commission joined forces to try to get it changed, but Makropoulos used his personal power of diktat ( derived from where? ) to prevent it from being discussed.

Her team was fortunate not to be paired against one of the many African teams who had never left home. There is still a story to be told about that.
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Alex Holowczak
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:37 pm

NickFaulks wrote:The absurd tiebreak system is a well known horror story. Some years ago the eminent Chairmen of every technically informed Commission joined forces to try to get it changed, but Makropoulos used his personal power of diktat ( derived from where? ) to prevent it from being discussed.
I actually quite like the Olympiad tie-break. :oops:

The main complaint about the Olympiad tie-break was that a random match somewhere else in the room would effect the final total. But in what way does that differ from Buchholz, which is by far the most popular tie-break that seems to be in use?

I presume Makro's authority on the tie-break is derived from his being Chairman of the World Championship & Olympiad Commission, and his ability to stop it being discussed is just a common trait in his style of chairing meetings?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:09 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:[But in what way does that differ from Buchholz, which is by far the most popular tie-break that seems to be in use?
It doesn't and the issue of an obscure game determining the placings has been seen before and was even captured on TV. I'm thinking of the 1988 event where England's place depended on the outcome of a game well outside the top echolons.

What is wrong with using sum of Progressive Scores? It penalises teams submarining, but is that a bad thing?

Dewi Jones
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Dewi Jones » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:37 pm

Go on, I'll bite, what is "submarining"?

Chris Rice
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:40 am

Dewi Jones wrote:Go on, I'll bite, what is "submarining"?
You can do not so well in the early rounds thus getting weaker teams and only emerging later on as one of the leaders. I can't see in a Swiss how you would eliminate this.

If it had been three points for a win and one for a draw the result would have been clear:

1 Ukraine 30
2 USA 29
3 Russian 26

On the 2 pts for a win one point for a draw I would have liked to see number of wins as the tie breaker, unfortunately it appears that both USA and Ukraine had 22 wins each so I guess that wouldn't have helped. Probably simplest to have had a rapid/blitz play off match between USA & Ukraine to settle it as was suggested. Under the current system what is a match captain to do if in a critical game a player wants to know whether he should play on or not?

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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:23 am

Chris Rice wrote:Probably simplest to have had a rapid/blitz play off match between USA & Ukraine to settle it as was suggested.
It isn't clear to me that there is time to do that before prize giving, particularly if multiple teams are involved in the tie.
Chris Rice wrote:Under the current system what is a match captain to do if in a critical game a player wants to know whether he should play on or not?
There's not a lot the captain can do without tracking all the results. But again, this is true of Buchholz. I don't see it as equitable to use this argument as one against the Olympiad system when the most commonly used tie-break has the same problem, without anyone getting up-tight about it.

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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:16 am

I have no time for Buchholz either. What is wrong with total game points as the first tiebreak? I'm not suggesting it's clearly the best way of sorting out ties - in fact, I think it's a mistake to believe that such a thing exists - but it has the merits of being simple and obvious, like goal difference in football.
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:37 am

Alex Holowczak wrote: Iactually quite like the Olympiad tie-break.
I agree, it has a major advantage: it's so unpredictable that makes it extremely difficult for anyone to play for a draw at the last round with the certainty of a tie-break win. Any team, any round, the only way to win for certain is to win your matches and distance your opponents. Very little calculations there, no matches with 4 draws.
Compare with the candidates tournament: the last round and the ultimate victory was arguably ruined by the predictability of the tie-break.

The delay in confirming the final result is not much of a big deal to me. Regularly at every tournament with rating prizes you need to wait quite a bit for all the details to be published... no big deal.

Mick Norris
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:15 am

If the teams have played each other then head to head result as first tiebreak would make sense
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NickFaulks
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Re: 2016 Olympiad - Baku

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:43 am

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: I actually quite like the Olympiad tie-break.
I agree, it has a major advantage: it's so unpredictable
I'd never considered that as an advantage. If that's what you want, I'm sure I could devise something even more contorted.
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