Title norm query

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Richard Bates
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Title norm query

Post by Richard Bates » Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

I had only noticed this recently (has it always been there?) but regulation 1.41(c) states that:
For a 9 round tournament, if a player has just 8 games because of a forfeit or Bye, but he has met the correct mix of opponents in those games, then if he has a title result in 8 games, it counts as an 8 game norm.
Does this mean, as it appears to, that a player can take a half point bye in a 9 round Swiss and still obtain a norm result? And if so, what is "the correct mix of opponents" in this context?

LawrenceCooper
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Title norm query

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon May 08, 2017 6:16 pm

Richard Bates wrote:I had only noticed this recently (has it always been there?) but regulation 1.41(c) states that:
For a 9 round tournament, if a player has just 8 games because of a forfeit or Bye, but he has met the correct mix of opponents in those games, then if he has a title result in 8 games, it counts as an 8 game norm.
Does this mean, as it appears to, that a player can take a half point bye in a 9 round Swiss and still obtain a norm result? And if so, what is "the correct mix of opponents" in this context?
Clarification would be useful but my guess would be that it refers to a full point bye. I don't think half point byes are that common outside the UK and I can't recall ever seeing them referred to in title regulations. I think the forfeit point is quite important as I know of at least one player who missed out on a norm due to his final round opponent defaulting and even taking an earlier flight without informing the organiser.

If the correct mix of opponents is that referred to for 8 round norms then one less title holder is required albeit one less unrated is allowed.

Richard Bates
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: Title norm query

Post by Richard Bates » Mon May 08, 2017 6:37 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:I had only noticed this recently (has it always been there?) but regulation 1.41(c) states that:
For a 9 round tournament, if a player has just 8 games because of a forfeit or Bye, but he has met the correct mix of opponents in those games, then if he has a title result in 8 games, it counts as an 8 game norm.
Does this mean, as it appears to, that a player can take a half point bye in a 9 round Swiss and still obtain a norm result? And if so, what is "the correct mix of opponents" in this context?
Clarification would be useful but my guess would be that it refers to a full point bye. I don't think half point byes are that common outside the UK and I can't recall ever seeing them referred to in title regulations. I think the forfeit point is quite important as I know of at least one player who missed out on a norm due to his final round opponent defaulting and even taking an earlier flight without informing the organiser.

If the correct mix of opponents is that referred to for 8 round norms then one less title holder is required albeit one less unrated is allowed.
Whilst this might be the intention of the regulation, i'm not sure whether the actual drafting might overrule this (don't know how these things work in practice). I might note that in another context (FIDE pairing rules) that the regulations until July 1st specifically refer to the possibility of byes being worth half a point, and post July 1st are being rewritten to distinguish between "pairing allocated" byes (and by implication other types of byes).

This might not be a purely academic question because I am fairly certain that players have produced 8 round norm performances in 9 round tournaments in the UK (eg. in the London Classic, where players will often take half point byes on double round days). But then it also might be relevant how long this clause has existed.

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Title norm query

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon May 08, 2017 6:45 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:I had only noticed this recently (has it always been there?) but regulation 1.41(c) states that:
For a 9 round tournament, if a player has just 8 games because of a forfeit or Bye, but he has met the correct mix of opponents in those games, then if he has a title result in 8 games, it counts as an 8 game norm.
Does this mean, as it appears to, that a player can take a half point bye in a 9 round Swiss and still obtain a norm result? And if so, what is "the correct mix of opponents" in this context?
Clarification would be useful but my guess would be that it refers to a full point bye. I don't think half point byes are that common outside the UK and I can't recall ever seeing them referred to in title regulations.
As written, it doesn't matter that much if half-point byes qualify or not. The player can default the last round game to avoid it counting. (I wouldn't be surprised if it should say "win by forfeit", but it doesn't.)

Richard Bates
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: Title norm query

Post by Richard Bates » Mon May 08, 2017 6:50 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:I had only noticed this recently (has it always been there?) but regulation 1.41(c) states that:



Does this mean, as it appears to, that a player can take a half point bye in a 9 round Swiss and still obtain a norm result? And if so, what is "the correct mix of opponents" in this context?
Clarification would be useful but my guess would be that it refers to a full point bye. I don't think half point byes are that common outside the UK and I can't recall ever seeing them referred to in title regulations.
As written, it doesn't matter that much if half-point byes qualify or not. The player can default the last round game to avoid it counting. (I wouldn't be surprised if it should say "win by forfeit", but it doesn't.)
Well it doesn't matter in the context of dubious last round shenanigans (and usually last round games are excluded from (voluntary half point byes), but it does matter for individuals considering taking a round off earlier in the tournament (I actually noticed this in the context of John Pigott's recent performance in Iceland - although as it happened in that case he didn't have a norm performance after 9(8) rounds).

Ian Thompson
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Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Title norm query

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon May 08, 2017 7:38 pm

Richard Bates wrote:Well it doesn't matter in the context of dubious last round shenanigans
You can default by informing the organiser, before the pairings are done, that you won't be attending the last round. I wasn't advocating allowing yourself to be paired and then not turning up.