2018 World Championship in London

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JustinHorton
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:22 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:26 pm
J T Melsom wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:42 pm
And I'm pretty confident that the media interest spiked as we got to the end, when there was the prospect of an intense struggle reaching a conclusion.
I think it's fairly normal at the end of a long event. NRK had record viewing figures on the playoff day. But I'm sure more people watch a World Cup Final (rugby, cricket, football, tennis)
Tennis?
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:26 pm
I'm sure more people watch the Last Night of the Proms than the one in the middle.
The Last Night is not the same kind of thing as the other nights and they are not essentially comparable.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:46 am

"Unless I am missing something, wouldn't that be from 1934 rather than 1948?"

Yes, that's fair - I was taking 1948 as when FIDE made the title (sort of) official.

If you got a time machine and told Steinitz and Anderssen (1866 result +8=0-6) that all games were drawn, I guess they would be shocked.

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:49 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:22 am
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:26 pm
J T Melsom wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:42 pm
And I'm pretty confident that the media interest spiked as we got to the end, when there was the prospect of an intense struggle reaching a conclusion.
I think it's fairly normal at the end of a long event. NRK had record viewing figures on the playoff day. But I'm sure more people watch a World Cup Final (rugby, cricket, football, tennis)
Tennis?
I added tennis afterwards by thinking: "The Wimbledon Final will get more viewers than a 1st round match", but forgot the previous text referred to a World Cup Final.

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JustinHorton
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:56 am

Come to that though, none of the ones preceding are particularly good comparisons to the match just finished, because in all of them you're discussing the final two attracting more attention that a contest not involving the final two, whereas the first, fifth and final games of Carlsen v Caruana do all involve the final two.
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:41 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:56 am
Come to that though, none of the ones preceding are particularly good comparisons to the match just finished, because in all of them you're discussing the final two attracting more attention that a contest not involving the final two, whereas the first, fifth and final games of Carlsen v Caruana do all involve the final two.
I might be confusing myself because a normal sport has a competition for a World Championship with more than 2 players in it.

But the viewing figures were highest on the day the title was going to be won. In the context of a World Cup, or a Grand Slam tennis event, more people will watch the match on the last day than the match on the first day, because people are interested in who is going to win. A particularly exciting game or match during the middle of the event is probably not watched by as many people.

I think people tune in en masse in to see the event won and lost; not necessarily see "perfect" chess played.

Mike Gunn
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Mike Gunn » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:54 am

If you're looking for excitement in a sporting encounter I think it comes when one side is just ahead and the other side has to try really hard to get back on terms. There is nothing quite so boring as a 0-0 draw in football even when you are watching great individual skills from the players. The two best matches I have seen were West Ham 5 Bradford 4 (lead changing hands several times, Di Canio sitting on the touchline refusing to play) and the 2006 Cup Final where West Ham were ahead but Gerrard scored an amazing equaliser and Liverpool went on to win on penalties).

If the champion had draw odds in the match (as in the past) then the onus is on the challenger to win a game and therefore take some risks and you will get some drama. Alternatively you could play the tiebreak first as several people have suggested, but I agree with Carlsen that this seems artificial. The world championship match is the single chess event that gets widespread media attention and the format requires some careful thought to restore to its previous status.

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JustinHorton
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:12 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:41 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:56 am
Come to that though, none of the ones preceding are particularly good comparisons to the match just finished, because in all of them you're discussing the final two attracting more attention that a contest not involving the final two, whereas the first, fifth and final games of Carlsen v Caruana do all involve the final two.
I might be confusing myself because a normal sport has a competition for a World Championship with more than 2 players in it.
Except, say, boxing.
"Do you play chess?"
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:26 pm

There have certainly been some highly exciting 0-0 draws in football, though I don't deny they are very much in the minority.
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 pm

Hi Roger,

"There won't have been any world championships because no-one was crazy enough to specify rules that have sudden death without increments. "

No sure what you are saying. Is it previous World Championship from the time of Steinitz had increments.

Hi Matt,

You can get great 2-2, 3-3 and 4-4 matches. We would not be having this discussion if Carlsen and Caruana had
won two games each. W.C. History clearly shows having no increments lowers the draw rate by a considerable amount.

Even the Moscow Marathon, arguably the greatest bore festival in chess which was eventually abandoned
had 7 decisive results. This W.C. gave us none.
Of course they never had the technology till around about 2000 but just because we have it now there is no need to use it.

I'll stay with draw odds. Possibly a bit old school there. I am of the opinion a champion must be unseated
and the challenger has to beat them. However tie breaks first sounds better than tie breaks after.

Whilst here....I've started so I'll finish.....The prize money split needs sorting out.
By drawing game 12 Caruana received 45% of the pot. The split should be 70%-30% in favour
of the winner irrespective of how they got to a result.

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:21 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 pm
Hi Roger,

"There won't have been any world championships because no-one was crazy enough to specify rules that have sudden death without increments. "

No sure what you are saying. Is it previous World Championship from the time of Steinitz had increments.
Up to and including the 1993 matches, games were played to a finish at the same rate of play throughout, adjourning when time ran out. If you abolish this, then you have a choice of either increments or arbiter's call where the arbiter determines the result when time runs out.

I think, but cannot be certain, that the 1996 match between Kasparov and Anand employed increments and had a quick finish.

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:24 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:12 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:41 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:56 am
Come to that though, none of the ones preceding are particularly good comparisons to the match just finished, because in all of them you're discussing the final two attracting more attention that a contest not involving the final two, whereas the first, fifth and final games of Carlsen v Caruana do all involve the final two.
I might be confusing myself because a normal sport has a competition for a World Championship with more than 2 players in it.
Except, say, boxing.
Yes, which has about four different organisations purporting to run "World Championships", because with such a format it's trivially easy to set up a new governing body to run something called the "World Championship". Very reminiscent of the Kasparov-Short World Championship, in fact.

David Williams
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by David Williams » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:44 pm

For me the great thing about draw odds is that someone is always winning. There is always an imbalance. If you're losing by half a point there's if anything slightly more incentive to go for the win. It doesn't just bring you back to level pegging. And if you're winning the consequences of a misjudgement are that you actually go behind. In football there's nothing more tense than the second leg of a close tie where away goals count double. And in chess, unlike football, it completely eliminates the need for any sort of tie-break.

If you accept that, you have to come up with an acceptable way of deciding who has the draw odds. I'm not particularly interested in motor racing, and I know it's not an exact parallel, but F1 manages to generate considerable interest in sessions of the drivers going against the clock to decide grid positions, and it also serves to whet the appetite for the main event. Would a series of rapid/blitz games after the opening ceremony, to determine who has draw odds, be such a bad idea?

And if Carlsen had won this, and then retained his title after a match of twelve draws, would that not feel at least a bit more satisfactory than what actually happened? The onus would have been on Caruana, and his failure to make even a dent on Carlsen would leave Carlsen a deserving winner. Not to mention the occasions on which he might well have been a bit more enterprising, and we might well have had a very different, and more interesting match.

(If you can change your mind once, Geoff, you can change it again. Or persuade me to change mine!)

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JustinHorton
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:10 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:10 am
My modest proposal
Sergei's with me
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Mick Norris
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:59 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:10 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:10 am
My modest proposal
Sergei's with me
Pity, i was beginning to think it a good idea :wink:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:00 pm

Hi David,

I might change my mind yet again. You have to be flexible in these things
and appreciate those on the inside, the rule makers would have tossed
this thing over and over before reaching a decision....Well I hope so.

I (we) cannot argue against that sudden burst of media interest when the rapid started.
I've been howling for years about the lack of media of interest and then 'BINGO!'
back to scratching my head but I still have my eye on those wretched time increments.
And Carlsen also recognised that time is an issue in today's piece in the Guardian.

Image

Funny to think if in game 12 when ahead in position and well ahead on the clock,
(surely the perfect conditions for ""quick calculation, intuition and instinct."), Carlsen
had pushed for and got the win then we would not have the rapids and a media frenzy.

It's increment clocks we should abolish, those that lean on them like a crutch and are
in favour of them are obviously lacking in the "quick calculation, intuition and instinct." department.

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