2018 World Championship in London

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:04 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:00 pm

It's increment clocks we should abolish
What move rate would you recommend then?

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:05 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:21 pm
I think, but cannot be certain, that the 1996 match between Kasparov and Anand employed increments and had a quick finish.
I'm not sure about that either, I do know that it was in 199*5* however :)
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:15 pm

Hi Roger,

Off the top of my head. 2 hours 40 moves. 20 moves an hour thereafter no adjournments.
I will allow you to use electronic clocks but no tampering with increments.

(I wonder if these clock manufactures have had some say in this and what goes on so
we (I have one) have to buy one.....I knew it...it's always about the money.)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:58 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:15 pm
Hi Roger,

Off the top of my head. 2 hours 40 moves. 20 moves an hour thereafter no adjournments.
Do you and the watching public really want 10 or 12 hour games in one sitting?

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:02 pm

Assuming this can be believed, and I'm sure it can, the 1995 match was played with a guillotine finish.

"Four games were scheduled each week with no time-outs and no adjournments. The games were played on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. The time control was 2 hours for 40 moves, 1 hour for the next 20 moves, and sudden death in a half hour. Each game was to start at 3 PM and could therefore finish no later than 10 PM."

The longest game went 63 moves ( a drawn rook ending after the match was effectively over ), the next longest 43, so the guillotine was not an issue.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:14 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:02 pm
The time control was 2 hours for 40 moves, 1 hour for the next 20 moves, and sudden death in a half hour.
That was a standard time control for the period, used in one round a day events such as the British Championship, Hastings and the 4NCL. Digital clocks were available by then, so the switch to increment equivalents gradually took place, possibly to get arbiters out of having to make potentially controversial decisions on "unable" claims.

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:15 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:14 pm
That was a standard time control for the period
It was, but I thought we were wondering whether it had ever been applied in a WC match.

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:27 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:15 pm

It was, but I thought we were wondering whether it had ever been applied in a WC match.
Apart from the forgotten Kamsky v Karpov match for FIDE's title, that was the last proper match for some years, during which faster and incremental time rates became established. The isolated Braingames match in 2000 introduced a Kasparov advocated novelty of only adding an increment at move 61. The first models of DGT didn't support deferred increments, so if any games had got that far, there would have to have been a clock substitution.

It was never really in Kasparov's style to grind on for ever. If he didn't get an opening or middle game advantage, he was apt to just take a draw, so what happened after move 60 was never really tested in his matches.

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:40 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:27 pm
Apart from the forgotten Kamsky v Karpov match for FIDE's title
This one turns out to be interesting too, which I don't think I ever knew.

https://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/96kk$$.htm

"The two players could not agree on the terms of adjournment. Karpov wanted the games adjourned after six hours of play, while Kamsky wanted all games played to a decision on the same day."

The decision was adjournments.

Nick Ivell
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Nick Ivell » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:19 am

I've had a think about the championship matches of my youth, from 1972 to 1993.

There may be an element of rose-tinted spectacles, but as I look back, all of these matches were full of exciting positions. Yes, there were problems: the mismatch in Merano, the run of draws in Karpov v Kasparov take 1, even the mismatch in 1972 which was perhaps not obvious when the match started. And in 1993, with no disrespect to England's greatest player, only Dominic Lawson and Nigel himself thought that a close contest was in prospect.

I'm left with the memory of exciting positions in all of these matches. True, I was bored by the recent contest, but which positions stay in my mind? Only two.

Firstly, the thrilling ending where Fabiano missed a win with ...Bh4. Definitely one for the textbooks.

Secondly and finally, the game where Fabiano with White missed his chances by playing h3. It was an exciting position, but the move h3 spoke volumes; it was tentative, the move of a man who didn't really believe he was going to win the match.

Nothing else stays in my mind. You can put a spin on anything. Richard has tried his best, and I respect his view. My view is that this was a poor advert for classical chess. Matches are getting shorter, the standard of play is getting higher, and all the time the drama is being sucked out of the game.

A serious rethink is needed for the next championship cycle. It's hard to believe that a single casual viewer would have been enthused by the series of draws we have just witnessed.

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JustinHorton
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:36 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:19 am
.
which positions stay in my mind? Only two.

Firstly, the thrilling ending where Fabiano missed a win with ...Bh4. Definitely one for the textbooks.

Secondly and finally, the game where Fabiano with White missed his chances by playing h3. It was an exciting position, but the move h3 spoke volumes; it was tentative, the move of a man who didn't really believe he was going to win the match.

Nothing else stays in my mind.
The first game was pretty dramatic
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David Williams
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by David Williams » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:40 pm

If Caruana had actually played Bh4 and won, but he didn't . . .
For me, at my relatively lowly level, there was one move that I never would have considered but could understand as soon as it was played, and arguably decided the whole match, and that was Re7+ in the first rapid game.

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:54 pm

David Williams wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:40 pm
For me, at my relatively lowly level, there was one move that I never would have considered but could understand as soon as it was played, and arguably decided the whole match, and that was Re7+ in the first rapid game.
It was a move that the players needed to foreseen several moves in advance. Almost certainly, only one of them did so.

On such fine margins are World Championships decided.

NickFaulks
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:34 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:54 pm
On such fine margins are World Championships decided.
If they have to be decided in rapid games.

Chris Rice
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:19 am

From the Guardian yesterday:

Magnus Carlsen's tense victory sends interest in chess soaring by Caroline Davies

....But it was the intensity of the Carlsen v Caruana world championship, held in London over three weeks, that gripped an audience drawn by the prospect of sudden death by blitz or armageddon – evocatively named speed chess games – after 12 consecutive draws.
In the end, Carlsen retained his title when the games, which can last for seven or eight hours, were set at 25 minutes, causing Caruana to lose three-nil in a playoff.
“So we didn’t get to armageddon. It would have been mildly sacrilegious if we had: a bit like settling the world cup final with a game of keepy-uppy, because, frankly, it’s that random,” said Pein.

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