2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

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Chris Rice
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2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Chris Rice » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:56 am

FIDE have just published the final list of 128 participants for this event which should be incredible. Apart from Topalov, all the top players are there.

Mick Norris
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:36 pm

The regluations say if Karjakin reaches the final, then the 3rd place in the WC qualifies for the Candidates; the regulations don't seem to cover what happens if Carlsen reaches the final (and if the final is Carlsen v Karjakin, unlikely as it may seem)

Regulations

Not sure if the pairings will be based on the August rating list, or the September one
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Tim Harding
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Tim Harding » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:21 pm

Friendly of the Georgians to give one of their four invitations to Radjabov, who certainly deserves it after his Geneva performance.
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Mick Norris
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:01 pm

Tim Harding wrote:Friendly of the Georgians to give one of their four invitations to Radjabov, who certainly deserves it after his Geneva performance.
Although it appears they picked him before Geneva

It is less of an issue at the WC (4 places out of 128) than the Candidates (1 out of 8, although there is a rating floor that limits the choices)
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Tim Harding wrote:Friendly of the Georgians to give one of their four invitations to Radjabov
Another candidate for a late wild card is the Canadian who lost a play off because of arbiter prejudice against an upturned Rook in circumstances where his opponent had hidden the previously captured Queen.
Perhaps like two handed castling, holding captured pieces could be made illegal. That's bad news for Gelfand.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Chris Rice » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:10 am

Peter Doggers article which identifies the same potential problem as Mick has above. It appears Carlsen's decision to compete in the World Cup was a last minute decision but he seems to really like the KO format. Probably due to the fact that he hasn't lost a tie-break in 10 years. Doggers take on the issue of Carlsen and Karjakin reaching the final is that the 4th placed person would also become eligible for the Candidates. Clearly we need FIDE to rule on this before the tournament starts to avoid chaos breaking out if we get multiple ties.

There is also a ChessBase article discussing this as well.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:19 am

Chris Rice wrote: Doggers take on the issue of Carlsen and Karjakin reaching the final is that the 4th placed person would also become eligible for the Candidates.
It would be easy enough to avoid. Just put them in the same half of the pairings, thus ensuring that they meet in the semis or earlier. The regulations would have to permit a ranking adjustment if necessary.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:26 am

We've actually previously had a 3rd place play off at the World Cup in 2011 when the final where Svidler beat Grischuk but both qualified for the Candidates had less pressure than the Ivanchuk v Ponomariov play off, where only the winner qualified for the Candidates

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Last edited by Mick Norris on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NickFaulks
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:09 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:It would be easy enough to avoid.
Why would you want to do that? Apart from being unfair, I would quite like to see a Carlsen-Karjakin final.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:16 am

NickFaulks wrote: Why would you want to do that?
So as not to have to write a regulation that said both the other semi finalists qualified, or some other rule that gave the place to someone by rating or Grand Prix. As various websites seem to be pointing out, the possibility of a Carlsen - Karjakin doesn't seem allowed for in the current regulations.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:29 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: As various websites seem to be pointing out, the possibility of a Carlsen - Karjakin doesn't seem allowed for in the current regulations.
Then fix the regulations, which is trivially simple. There's no need to screw up the format of the competition.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:40 am

Chris Rice wrote:Peter Doggers article which identifies the same potential problem as Mick has above. It appears Carlsen's decision to compete in the World Cup was a last minute decision but he seems to really like the KO format. Probably due to the fact that he hasn't lost a tie-break in 10 years. Doggers take on the issue of Carlsen and Karjakin reaching the final is that the 4th placed person would also become eligible for the Candidates
The regulations say
Qualification for the 2018 Candidates Tournament
The players who qualify for the Candidates Tournament are determined according to the following, in order of priority:
2. 1 World Championship Match 2016 - The player who lost the 2016 World Championship Match qualifies.
2. 2 World Cup 2017 - The two (2) top winners of the World Cup 2017 qualify. In case one of the two top winners of the World
Cup qualifies from 2.1 above, then the qualification spot goes to 3rd place of the World Cup.
This means that it is only Karjakin that matters, as he qualifies under 2.1; if he reaches the final, then a 3rd place playoff will be needed

Magnus reaching the final doesn't count

We then have
2. 3 FIDE Grand-Prix 2016/2017 - The two (2) top players from the FIDE Grand-Prix 2016/2017 qualify to participate. In case
any of the two top winners of the FIDE Grand-Prix qualify from 2.1 or 2.2 above, then the qualification spot(s) are given to
the next player(s) in the final standings of the Grand-Prix.
2. 4 Average FIDE Rating List of the 12 monthly lists starting from 1st January 2017 to 1st December 2017 - Two (2)
players qualify to participate by rating (excluding the players who qualify from articles 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 above). A player can
qualify by rating only if he/she participates in the World Cup 2017 or the FIDE Grand Prix 2016-2017. For the purpose of
deciding the 2 rated player qualifiers, the average from the following twelve FIDE rating lists will be used: the sum of all 12
monthly lists starting from 1st January 2017 to 1st December 2017 divided by 12. A minimum of thirty (30) rated games in
total is required for each player in the 12 monthly rating periods. In case of equality, two decimals will be taken into
consideration. If the numbers are still equal then the total number of games in all 12 rating periods shall be decisive. That
means the player with the greater number of games shall qualify.
2. 5 One nominated player by the Organiser - A player, nominated by the organiser, with a rating of at least 2725 in any FIDE
standard rating list of 2017.
2. 6 Replacements - If any replacement is needed due to withdrawal or refusal of participation, the first reserve player from the
final standings of the FIDE Grand-Prix 2016/2017 will be invited. Any further replacement needed will be fulfilled from the
average rating list described in article 2.4 above.
From 2.3, the top 2 in the GP qualify (Karjakin didn't play in the GP so ignore him); if 1 (or both) of them reached the WC final, then the GP 3rd (and 4th if both) would qualify

We then move to 2.4, where we see an issue; Magnus qualifies from here simply by turning up at the WC and making a move; if he declines :wink: his spot in the Candidates, his replacement under 2.6 comes from the GP; this would mean that only 1 other player would qualify by rating (currently So, with Caruana and then Kramnik following in that list at the moment)
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NickFaulks
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:48 am

Mick Norris wrote:Magnus reaching the final doesn't count
I would guess this is just sloppy drafting, resulting from an understandable but careless assumption that Magnus would not take part. It is trivially simple to fix.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:27 am

NickFaulks wrote: I would guess this is just sloppy drafting, resulting from an understandable but careless assumption that Magnus would not take part. It is trivially simple to fix.
Does it actually say anywhere that the World Champion isn't eligible to compete in the Candidates?

The critical point is as to whether there are still two qualifiers to the Candidates from the World Cup if the finalists are Karjakin and Carlsen.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:51 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:Does it actually say anywhere that the World Champion isn't eligible to compete in the Candidates?
No it doesn't, but Candidates tournaments have been going on for a long time and probably their regulations never have explicitly said that.

"The Candidates Tournament to determine the challenger for the 2018 World Chess Championship Match" looks good enough. You can't challenge yourself.

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