2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

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John McKenna
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by John McKenna » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:00 pm

Alistair Campbell wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Really? The players privately even out disparities in prize monies? Why?
The big secret is that poker players don't like gambling ;)

In relation to chess, I would guess that the danger is that it might cause trouble with the taxman.
Essentially you have 2 players playing "Winner Takes All" for $40,000. One may wish to alter the risk/reward profile. If two wish that, you may have the makings of a deal.

The tax treatment is an interesting point. Off topic, I suspect MPs and MSPs and so on who donate "unwanted" salary increases or income from second jobs to charity, still incur a tax liability.
They shouldn't forget to send in their Gift Aid forms, like... oh, Jeremy Corbyn.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:03 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:I was told years ago that a little group of strong players toured the weekend Swisses, with an arrangement they would split the prize money whatever happened. This gave them the confidence to play very aggressively in the last round against each other, knowing that a loss was not a disaster, and obviously a win was very beneficial. A quick draw might let others catch up or even overtake them.
Allegations to this effect were once made in a letter to CHESS magazine, by none other than Julian Hodgson's mum.
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JustinHorton
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:37 pm

I can't remember where I read this (and it's not as if "I read this somewhere" is any kind of evidence) but isn't this rumoured to happen in US opens because the prize money is skewed towards first place?
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Steven DuCharme
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Steven DuCharme » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:12 pm

In my opinion 21...Nef6 in the final game is one of the greatest moves ever!
I float like a pawn island and sting like an ignored knight :mrgreen:

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:32 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:I was told years ago that a little group of strong players toured the weekend Swisses, with an arrangement they would split the prize money whatever happened. This gave them the confidence to play very aggressively in the last round against each other, knowing that a loss was not a disaster, and obviously a win was very beneficial. A quick draw might let others catch up or even overtake them.
Allegations to this effect were once made in a letter to CHESS magazine, by none other than Julian Hodgson's mum.


As maternal interventions go, that tops even Michael Stean’s mum writing to CHESS about the Keene/Korchnoi Baguio unpleasantness.



Here’s another letter from Mother Hodgson:-
http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.c ... ditor.html



which includes the line following two sentences:-

And Stewart Reuben. Even though the latter never eats anything I give him when he comes round to dine with us!
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:34 pm

Hi Justin,

I too recall such a letter though not the name of the sender.

Nothing wrong with teaming up if touring the country staying in digs,
the winner pays the rent etc...etc...but the line must be drawn if a
player throws a game to allow his partner a White in the last round.
That would be a no-no. Caught doing that would and should cede the prize money.

Thought arbiters were wary of such tactics and paired players from
the same town with each other early on - sometimes in round one.

Back to Ding Liren v Lev Aronian.

There is a nice mirror tactic with Knights sacced on f4 and f5
and Queens going to h4 and h5 here - Black to play.



25...fxe4 26.Qh5+ wins.

and later with White to play.



31. Rxf5 Qh4 wins

Hi Steven,

2In my opinion 21...Nef6 in the final game is one of the greatest moves ever!"

I would not throw gold coins on the board just yet.
If Ding had played 23.Bg3 here



The g-file is blocked and White is looking pretty again. (he's surely not lost)

One of the Stepford Clones will happen along soon and give us an engine assessment.
It would not be the first time, nor the last time an engine user has smugly corrected me.
Electronic nit-pickers, same breed as grammar and spelling nit-pickers. Nutcases.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:38 pm

In poker it is often done to avoid random variance. Thus, in Vegas, I have agreed to deal a hand out twice. Half the money then going to each of thr two pots. This can't be done during a tournament, the other contestants want to see players knocked out. Some players agreed certain splits of pots, perhaps one had a 60% advantage. I never did this, assuming my American opponent might have more information than me gleaned from other players who had originally been dealt in.

There is another factor in poker in the US. If I played in a big tournament with an American, he would have to pay 30% tax on his winnings. I would not have to as there is a reciprocal tax agreement. Thus the American, in a final against me, would be better off throwing first place to me and then our splitting the difference later. Unfortunately I was never good enough to get into that situation and be tempted by that scamming of the IRS!

In 1997 I was in charge of the regulations for the First World Knockout Chess Championship. When the players initially tied, my regulations stated something like the eventual loser received 1/3rd of the differential. That regularised the situation.

In following years this process was not followed. It seemed to provoke more matches going to a tiebreak. But this year there were many, many matches initially drawn 1-1.

By the way, I very much doubt Chinese players keep all their winnings.The government used to take a great deal when I was involved with such matters.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:42 pm

[quote="Richard Bates]
Says the person who has just replied to a post on page 1 of a 62 page thread! ;)[/quote]

Hi Richard,

:)

I forgot about that. But you lot seemed to have calmed down.
This was posted over at chessgames today.

"Unless Carlsen complicates matters by participating in the Candidates by claiming
qualification via the average rating criterion..."

I gave up trying weeks ago on this one.

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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Chris Rice » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:51 am

Peter Doggers report on the final tie breaker which everyone seems to agree Aronian deserved to win. Didn't quite go according to plan by all accounts:

"Game one. Aronian set the basis for his victory with this crushing win, in which he managed to surprise his opponent in the opening. However, right after delivering the blow Ne5-g6, and Ding responding with Qf4-d2, something happened. As it turns out, some loud construction noise could be heard in the playing hall, and on that moment Aronian lost all his focus. "The first game was kind of not so difficult until the moment where the construction noise started," he said. "Then I lost my concentration and I allowed some unnecessary things because of the noise." It rarely happens in rapid games, but Aronian even left the playing hall for a moment. "Then I went to the bathroom, washed my face, just relaxed and I think I played a decent game later on." 11 moves later it was over.

The second game was kind of an Armageddon game for Aronian, who suddenly had draw odds to win the whole tournament. The nerves started to play a role again. Ding pushed his g-pawn after castling kingside and then also e3-e4. Aronian routinely took on e4, with the idea to regroup his knight on e8 via c7 to d5 and everything would be alright. But then, to his horror, he noticed that Ne8-c7 failed tactically, and so taking on e4 was bad. "I thought: Oh my God, how can somebody blunder such easy things!" Suddenly there were problems to solve. He played 21...Nef6, even though he saw it should lose. "But otherwise I am just gonna die slowly." Practically it was a good decision. "I managed to confuse my opponent I think. He allowed me to play 26...Rg4 after which I am back on track."

Mick Norris
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:47 am

Chris Rice wrote:The winner gets $120,000 whereas the loser takes home $80,000.
I think that FIDE gets 20% of the prizes, so Aronian actually gets $96K?
Last edited by Mick Norris on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:51 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Chris Rice wrote:The winner gets $120,000 whereas the loser takes home $80,000.
I think that FIDE gets 205 of the prizes, so Aronian actually gets $96K?
20% :wink:

Mick Norris
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:04 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:
Chris Rice wrote:The winner gets $120,000 whereas the loser takes home $80,000.
I think that FIDE gets 205 of the prizes, so Aronian actually gets $96K?
20% :wink:
Typing not my strong point :oops:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

NickFaulks
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:08 am

Mick Norris wrote:I think that FIDE gets 20% of the prizes, so Aronian actually gets $96K?
Correct. The official regulations do quote the net figure.
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:28 am

JustinHorton wrote:I can't remember where I read this (and it's not as if "I read this somewhere" is any kind of evidence) but isn't this rumoured to happen in US opens because the prize money is skewed towards first place?
The problem with that is that any individual GM can scoop the pool by staying out of the arrangement and winning. I remember a big tournament where Shabalov did this - I don't think the others actually pre-arranged anything, they just all wanted to guarantee that they could pay next week's rent - and the organiser was so pleased that his event hadn't ended with seven quick draws on the top boards that he threw in a bonus for enterprising play.
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Re: 2017 World Cup 2-27 September, Tbilisi

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:02 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Nick Burrows wrote:These arrangements are the norm in poker tournaments.
Really? The players privately even out disparities in prize monies? Why?
Because the variance in swings of short term luck can be enormous and the difference in prize money for each place at a final table is massive.

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