Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

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Chris Rice
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Chris Rice » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:50 am

With no obvious nominee pick for the organisers they might take the business opportunity of inviting all the possible wild cards to a seperate Super GM tournament once the other 7 places are known. If they do it based on financial considerations alone as Geoff suggests above I have this sinking feeling that it opens up the possibility of Carlsen getting invited as the wildcard.

Mick Norris
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:03 am

JustinHorton wrote:Which is quite a low figure when you think about it. I wonder how it was come to?
I think it was brought in originally, for previous Candidates, as 2700+ to avoid problems (e.g. you could have organised the Candidates and nominated yourself as wildcard, Justin :lol: )

The limit was then raised to 2725
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:11 am

JustinHorton wrote:Which is quite a low figure when you think about it. I wonder how it was come to?
It includes something like the world's top 25, but measuring it over a year enables a few more players to be qualified. Kirsan once advocated the idea of selling not just a place in the Candidates, but an entire World Championship match.

As we saw in Carlsen-Bu, a player in the world top 50 can convincingly beat the world champion. I doubt that would have happened in the heyday of Fischer, Karpov or Kasparov as they were just so much better than anyone outside the top 10.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:17 am

Didn't Fischer lose to a few people he shouldn't have?

Of course even beating the world champion in an indiviual game doesn't make you a likely or even potential winner of the Candidates. I should think 2725 is the level so that nobody is considered who might really embarrass themselves, as opposed to being a level where they might really pose a challenge. I suppose however that it might cater for

(a) a young superstar who might be shooting up the ratings and hence much stronger than their actual score (and naturally somebody you'd want to have included) ;

(b) Ivanchuk.
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NickFaulks
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:18 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: I doubt that would have happened in the heyday of Fischer, Karpov or Kasparov as they were just so much better than anyone outside the top 10.
Not that any of them would have put their reputation on the line, as they would have seen it, in such a tournament.

edit : I think that's unfair to Karpov.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:11 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote: I doubt that would have happened in the heyday of Fischer, Karpov or Kasparov as they were just so much better than anyone outside the top 10.
Not that any of them would have put their reputation on the line, as they would have seen it, in such a tournament.

edit : I think that's unfair to Karpov.
Why unfair to karpov, taking the years of Karpov as recognised world champion (1975-1985) as your guide?

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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by John McKenna » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:31 pm

In 1983 reigning World Champion A. Karpov played in the West German Open Ch. and lost to someone named Hartmann (round 1!?) He went on to win the event (+8,=6,-1).

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... nn#p170714
Last edited by John McKenna on Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:03 pm

Hi Chris.

"... it opens up the possibility of Carlsen getting invited as the wildcard."

Please do not suggest this even as a joke.

Over at chessgames there was (and probably still is) a blazing row with people
claiming Carlsen can qualify and play in the candidates because there
is nothing in the FIDE rules for the candidates to say he cannot.

I've said there is no need for such a rule but that got hit back with twisted logic.

Thought Yifan was higher rated but if Agon felt having her in it would definitely
boost subs then I'm sure a loophole would have been found and anyway anyone
pointing it out would have been labelled a misogynist. :)

They obviously have a short list and are awaiting events over the next month the clarify things.
The guest will be announced as soon as it has to give them time to prepare.

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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:11 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:Over at chessgames there was (and probably still is) a blazing row with people
claiming Carlsen can qualify and play in the candidates because there
is nothing in the FIDE rules for the candidates to say he cannot.
Those guys are idiots and proud of it, ignore them.

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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:10 pm

John McKenna wrote:In 1983 reigning World Champion A. Karpov played in the West German Open Ch. and lost to someone named Hartmann (round 1!?) He went on to win the event (+8,=6,-1).

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... nn#p170714
Interesting, but just one occasion and I wonder whether he was not so keen to repeat the experiment?
Hard to compare with the modern top players though, because some of the conditions now, at say Qatar, Gibraltar and IoM simply weren't on offer in those earlier days, as far as I know.

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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by John McKenna » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:33 pm

While World Champion Karpov lost the following games to somewhat lesser lights and as of the 1st July 1984 had not gained his customary revenge, which he always thirsted for -

1979 (w) Ivanov, Igor (Karpov: +3, =3, -1 at the Spartakiad, Moscow)
1982 (w) Garcia Palermo,S. (Karpov: 3rd - 5th; +4, =7, -2 at Mar del Plata)
1983 (b) Azmaiparashvili,Z. (Karpov: 1st; +5, =9, -1 in 50th USSR Ch.)
1984 (b) Torre,E. (Karpov: 1st; +6, =6, -1 in Phillips & Drew, London)

In addition to his loss, mentioned above, to Hartmann in Hanover.
Last edited by John McKenna on Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:38 pm

But none of those were opens. Phillips & Drew was one of the top round robins in 1982. The Russian Chs, where Azmai beat him, was a very big event for which Azmai had to qualify.

From his "Learn from your defeats (or not)" book, I think only the Hartmann game hints at voluntarily facing lesser lights.

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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by John McKenna » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:10 am

When Karpov became World Champion in April 1975 he vowed to be an active one, unlike his predecessor. True to his word, in July 1974 he (rated 2700) played the following opponents in the Nice Olympiad A-qualifier group -

1. Craig Pritchett (2350, Scotland & sometimes of this parish)
2. N.E. Zalm (unrated, Ned. Antillies)
3. Suhail Al Mallah (unrated, Jordan)
4. Wlodzimierz Schmidt (2500, Poland)
5. A. Howard Williams (2405, Wales)

As you might expect Karpov made a clean sweep (his total for the whole event: +10, =4, -0) with Craig lasting longest in terms of moves - thirty-nine and a half.

In the A-final group the lowest rated player to get a result against Karpov was none other than W. "Bill" Hartston (2480, Eng.) a draw - a clear pawn up - in exactly 40 moves each.
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:38 pm

Hi,

I've decided it's unfair to give a player 3 chances to qualify for the candidates by rating alone.

A high enough rating will get you into both the Grand Prix and the World Cup.
You can qualify for the candidates from there.

I have Kramnik in mind, a player who has not won anything for years.
He could not be bothered to play in the Grand Prix, got knocked out the world cup in round three,
(only played it in it because he had to - A player has to play in either the Grand Prix or the World Cup
to be eligible for the candidates rating spots.)
and yet he has a good chance to sneak back into the candidates because he sat on his rating.

An extra candidate spot should be made available in both the World Cup and the Grand Prix.
3rd place in the grand prix, and a 3rd place play off to take place on the same day as the final in the World Cup.

This way a player gets into the Candidates by playing well in a qualifying event for the
candidates and not because they did not enter one and got knocked out in the other.

Of course the same applies to Fabiano Caruana and possibly to Wes So (who at the time
of writing is still in the World Cup) but as I said I was thinking about Kramnik.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Candidates Tournament in Berlin March 2018

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:55 pm

I do think that post is a tad disrespectful to a former WC who has won the lot in his day.

He has to maintain his high rating in the events he plays, which is not a trivial task - so saying VK "sat on it" is not really accurate.
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