Chess in Iran

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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:17 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:50 pm

Allah never said anything about the appropriate punishment for playing chess with an Israeli. Note, Israeli, not Jew. Iranians have played non-Israeli Jews without controversy. Judit Polgar in the first round of the stupid Dresden Olympiad for example. Did Allah tell the leaders of Iran to distinguish between Jews from Israel and Jews from Hungary? Or did the Iranians make the rule up off the top of their heads and give it a religious pretext?
If one accepts that Allah's teachings were delivered by Mohammad almost 1500 years ago, that significantly pre-dates the foundation of present-day Israel and indicates that your two questions were rhetorical, as I suspect you intended. However, that's little to do with the point I was attempting to make. My point, quite simply, was that religious zealots (of any persuasion, not simply Islam) who believe they are guided by their god are unlikely to be dissuaded by secular authorities.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Iran v Israel Chess

Post by Chris Goodall » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:27 am

IanCalvert wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:58 pm
Stewart Reuben wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:44 pm
FIDE have a regulation that, if two countries are at war with each other, yet are playing in the same event, then they are allowed to refuse to be paired together. Thus presumably, during the Falklands crisis, Argentine and UK teams did not have to play against each other.

The problem regarding Israel is that some Arabic countries and Iran regard themselves as being at war with Israel. BUT Israel does not regard itself as being at war with them.
One common sense approach might be that if at least one of the two countries federations formally states that " a state of war" exists then they are not paired for chess matches. Doubtless there will need to be some limit on the number of "states of war " a federation can claim. Would the Lloyds Bank three be enough for the US federation??
If you do that, Ukraine will claim a state of war exists with Russia. Those are your two top seeds. You can't tell me that #2 refusing to play #1 isn't a competitive advantage.

The whole concept of opt-outs is wrong. If you opt out of playing an opponent that you're paired against, you get defaulted.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer).
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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Chris Goodall » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:41 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:17 am
My point, quite simply, was that religious zealots (of any persuasion, not simply Islam) who believe they are guided by their god are unlikely to be dissuaded by secular authorities.
They banned chess. Then they changed their minds and unbanned it. I don't think that was due to any fresh revelations from Muhammad.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer).
Newcastle is not in Scotland!

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:08 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:41 am
They banned chess. Then they changed their minds and unbanned it. I don't think that was due to any fresh revelations from Muhammad.
If I recall rightly, that reflected Mohammad's strictures on gambling - there was nothing specific to chess. The Iranian authorities reversed their decision as a result of a different interpretation of what Mohammad had meant and how this might, or might not, apply to chess.

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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:09 am

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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:10 am

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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:10 am

If I recall rightly, that reflected Mohammad's strictures on gambling - there was nothing specific to chess. The Iranian authorities reversed their decision following different interpretations of what Mohammad had meant and how these might, or might not, apply to chess.

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Re: Iran v Israel Chess

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:13 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:27 am
The whole concept of opt-outs is wrong. If you opt out of playing an opponent that you're paired against, you get defaulted.
The problem with applying this so strictly is that, in many cases, a defaulted game can screw up the tournament not only for the loser, but also for the winner.

Suppose I'm a 2300-rated Israeli FM. I enter a nine-round open; I have a TPR of 2450 after five rounds. In round 6, I get paired against some Iranian who refuses to play me. All of a sudden, through no fault of my own, my norm chances are gone.

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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:22 am

In the case of Iran & Israel it is clear that the motivation behind the boycott is not to gain a competitive advantage. Whether a competitive advantage is even obtained is debatable, and at best marginal. It is not the decision of the Iranian players, but is forced upon them by their government.

Suggesting it is better to take a hardline, puritanical view towards competitive equality and ban those Iranian players (which in itself could be seen as a political stance) than it is to make a common sense exception that doesn't really bother anyone (Purists aside), is a very undiplomatic stance.

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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:33 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:22 am

Suggesting it is better to take a hardline, puritanical view towards competitive equality
I don't think FIDE should award international events to Iran until its players are no longer required to ask special favours of organisers.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:31 pm

World War II started in 1939 during the Chess Olympiad in Argentine. The BCF team withdrew and went back home. But the Olympiad continued. FIDE is now a very large organisation in terms of different federations.
The Olympiad took place In Armenia in 1996. It was scheduled to clash with Yom Kippur. Of course, the Israelis and presumably some orthodox Jews would not play in the daytime. But they could play after sunset. The admin asked for volunteer teams to play against Israel. Only Armenia and Rumania volunteered.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by Chris Goodall » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:50 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:22 am
In the case of Iran & Israel it is clear that the motivation behind the boycott is not to gain a competitive advantage. Whether a competitive advantage is even obtained is debatable, and at best marginal. It is not the decision of the Iranian players, but is forced upon them by their government.

Suggesting it is better to take a hardline, puritanical view towards competitive equality and ban those Iranian players (which in itself could be seen as a political stance) than it is to make a common sense exception that doesn't really bother anyone (Purists aside), is a very undiplomatic stance.
No-one is suggesting banning any Iranian players.

More importantly, diplomacy works when the target of your diplomacy gives a damn about your approval. Taking a diplomatic stance towards uncompromising dictators is just cowardice, as Macron and May have discovered when trying to deal with Trump. Every outbreak of moral clarity in history has prompted someone to say "gosh, that's undiplomatic". It's how you know it's effective.
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:08 am
The Iranian authorities reversed their decision as a result of a different interpretation of what Mohammad had meant and how this might, or might not, apply to chess.
Then let them differently interpret what Muhammad meant about banning opponents of Israelis.
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:13 am
Suppose I'm a 2300-rated Israeli FM. I enter a nine-round open; I have a TPR of 2450 after five rounds. In round 6, I get paired against some Iranian who refuses to play me. All of a sudden, through no fault of my own, my norm chances are gone.
You'd be in the same position as if your opponent failed to be seated at the board for the gong, wouldn't you? How do organisers deal with that one?
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:33 am
I don't think FIDE should award international events to Iran until its players are no longer required to ask special favours of organisers.
This. Thank you Roger.

Now as far as I can tell, FIDE hold events in Iran (and Saudi Arabia) because they don't make money elsewhere, and they don't make money elsewhere because the spectators won't pay for something that they've been getting for free. So it's all connected. But you all know my soapbox routine on that topic.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer).
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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:20 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:50 pm
No-one is suggesting banning any Iranian players.
In practice, I think that is precisely what we are suggesting. I believe that players should not be allowed to enter any event unless they commit to playing against any of the other competitors, which would rule Iranian players out of most tournaments around the world ( until they changed their federation ).
You'd be in the same position as if your opponent failed to be seated at the board for the gong, wouldn't you? How do organisers deal with that one?
Fortunately that problem is now well behind us.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:33 am
I don't think FIDE should award international events to Iran until its players are no longer required to ask special favours of organisers.
I don't expect they will.

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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:33 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:31 pm
The admin asked for volunteer teams to play against Israel. Only Armenia and Rumania volunteered.
I knew nothing about that. I wonder how many teams were asked - presumably only those who could reasonably have been paired against Israel. I expect Bermuda would have said yes.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Chess in Iran

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:11 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:50 pm
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:13 am
Suppose I'm a 2300-rated Israeli FM. I enter a nine-round open; I have a TPR of 2450 after five rounds. In round 6, I get paired against some Iranian who refuses to play me. All of a sudden, through no fault of my own, my norm chances are gone.
You'd be in the same position as if your opponent failed to be seated at the board for the gong, wouldn't you? How do organisers deal with that one?
Typically by not using zero default times.

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