Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:49 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:47 pm
How many delegates do you honestly believe were persuaded by the quality and extravagance of the parties?
What do you think the general purpose of corporate hospitality is?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Andy Howie
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Andy Howie » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:59 pm

Honest Question John (I am asking as I attended one of the parties and didn't find it over extravagant and an excellent chance to catch up with old friends)

What do you think cost Makro more?

a) The parties and goodie bags
b) Makros meltdown in the hall on the Kremlin, his woeful presentation on why he should be still president and Zurabs blunder in upsetting practically all of Africa just before we voted
c) People were going to vote against him anyway?
d) Nigel withdrawing and endorsing AD.

I know from speaking to several fellow delegates that at least 7 fall under b) No one I have spoken to fall under a)

Personally I think it was a combination of b) and d). Nigel had withdrawn, there was no need for Makro to attack him in his speech!

Brian Towers
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Brian Towers » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:59 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:49 pm
J T Melsom wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:47 pm
How many delegates do you honestly believe were persuaded by the quality and extravagance of the parties?
What do you think the general purpose of corporate hospitality is?
Gaining access to the decision makers in an hospitable environment. Only a fool would think that big contracts can be bought with fancy canapes and expensive champagne. Of course that's the corporate world. The world of FIDE may very well be different.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

J T Melsom
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by J T Melsom » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:00 pm

'what is corporate hospitality for?'

To win friends and influence people. But policies matter as well don't they? Isn't the Bermuda party supposed to be an Olympiad highlight? Do the Bermudans run FIDE? I'm not denying the possibility of inducements, but to complain about the parties in two posts without reflecting on the policies might be too much/simplistic.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Simon Brown » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:04 pm

Not to bribe people. In my world it's to thank and recognise loyal support and to recognise the value of the business given by the customer by giving something back.

UK law is pretty strict about bribery, though I doubt the standards are quite so rigorously applied in Batumi.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:05 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:00 pm
'what is corporate hospitality for?'

To win friends and influence people. But policies matter as well don't they? Isn't the Bermuda party supposed to be an Olympiad highlight? Do the Bermudans run FIDE? .
They've not asked to, and I'm sure we both understand the difference between being offered hospitality by a political candidate and being invited to a party.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:08 pm

Simon Brown wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:04 pm
Not to bribe people. In my world it's to thank and recognise loyal support and to recognise the value of the business given by the customer by giving something back.
It is also, patently, to win friends and influence people as Jonathan says, and there are reasons why there are rules in the civil service about accepting this stuff, and why there are Registers of Interests in Parliament and so on and so forth.

Much of the time the people to whom it is offered aren't supposed to be showing "loyal support".
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:10 pm

Andy Howie wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:59 pm
Nigel had withdrawn, there was no need for Makro to attack him in his speech!
This is an interesting point. If the draw to decide the order of the speeches had gone differently, maybe Nigel's withdrawal would have had less/more impact and the tone/content of the speeches might have changed. Makro first, then the others might have not had quite the same impact, but would also not have given Makro a chance to respond. The order was Dvorkovich, Short, Makro.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:43 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:10 pm
The order was Dvorkovich, Short, Makro.
That certainly could not have worked better. First Dvorkovich gave his usual polished performance, then Short put the boot in, then it was Makro's turn. Had he gone first he might not have produced such a shambolic and embittered rant. But based on his first day's performance I think it's likely that he would have done. He was just gone.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Simon Brown » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:33 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:08 pm
Simon Brown wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:04 pm
Not to bribe people. In my world it's to thank and recognise loyal support and to recognise the value of the business given by the customer by giving something back.
It is also, patently, to win friends and influence people as Jonathan says, and there are reasons why there are rules in the civil service about accepting this stuff, and why there are Registers of Interests in Parliament and so on and so forth.

Much of the time the people to whom it is offered aren't supposed to be showing "loyal support".
I guess that's the difference between corporate hospitality and low-level incentivisation bordering on bribery. I would define giving freebies and booze to people you don't know as the latter rather than the former.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:38 pm

Depends on the nature of the giving, and for that matter of the knowing. If I buy a complete stranger a drink in the pub because they happen to be there, so what. If I work for Expensive Flats Corporation and I take the Chief Planning Officer of Mega City Council, who I know well, to Wimbledon, what's that?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:45 pm

Count yourself lucky if you don't have to do training courses on this sort of thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_C ... ctices_Act

I would be careful about your personal relationship with the Chief Planning Officer of Mega City Council, given he sounds like an official and Judge Dredd likely to apply penalties strictly.

I think Dvorkovich pitching the gifts and entertainment at a level he could defend if he had to, which is what you'd expect from someone with his background.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Simon Brown » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:55 pm

Best guideline on all this - if it feels dodgy, it probably is.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by John Foley » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:57 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:45 pm
I think Dvorkovich pitching the gifts and entertainment at a level he could defend if he had to, which is what you'd expect from someone with his background.
Paul is correct, this was a streamlined operation, fully deniable. The party invitation didn't say who it was from. In the UK, election publications must carry a name and address.
Andy Howie wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:59 pm
(I attended one of the parties and didn't find it over extravagant and an excellent chance to catch up with old friends)
I have yet to see a mermaid at a meeting of the English Chess Federation. There's usually an argument about the cost of biscuits. We're a dour lot down south.
Andy Howie wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:59 pm
What do you think cost Makro more?
a) The parties and goodie bags
I am sure you are right - other factors weighed more heavily. However, there is a serious point to be made about election expenses. Most democratic jurisdictions place a limit on how much each party can spend in order to maintain fairness. International sports federations are generally controlled by well-connected incumbents or state placemen. Truly independent candidates have no chance.
J T Melsom wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:00 pm
But policies matter as well don't they? Isn't the Bermuda party supposed to be an Olympiad highlight?
Maybe policies should matter, but in practice tactics dominate strategy. There were no hustings at the Congress - so direct contact with delegates was essential to win votes. "One Federation One Vote" creates a range of opportunities to win votes.

Note that the Bermuda Party was held earlier in the Olympiad, prior to the rest day. It was a crowded social diary.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:05 pm

John Foley wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:57 pm
Maybe policies should matter, but in practice tactics dominate strategy. There were no hustings at the Congress - so direct contact with delegates was essential to win votes. "One Federation One Vote" creates a range of opportunities to win votes.
Both major candidates had stalls at the Olympiad. There were speeches at the Assembly.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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