Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:29 pm

I think we might be at cross-purposes here but I guess what I'm not seeing is where ACC have said what they're supposed to have said. Of course it may have been something purely verbal, but is there more than that?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:01 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:29 pm
I think we might be at cross-purposes here but I guess what I'm not seeing is where ACC have said what they're supposed to have said. Of course it may have been something purely verbal, but is there more than that?
Nick and I were both present at the ACC meeting in Batumi. My recollection of what was said tallies with his.

The minutes of that meeting have not yet been published, as is the case with most of the and Commission and Committee meetings in Batumi. The minutes of the Rules Commission and of the Systems of Pairings and Program Commission, which have been mentioned on here, are commendable exceptions.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:02 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:47 pm
Sorry, not sure what you're getting at here
My guess was a reference to someone you've blogged about who had Surrey and BCF connections.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:18 pm

I don't think that can be right though since the claim of consent was disbelieved by the court and the chap in question went down for sexual asssault
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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by J T Melsom » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:25 pm

More likely I think that Kevin recalls the 'Spanner' trial or similar where the consensual pain inflicted went some way beyond spanking, so the courts got involved in the matter even though it happened in private. It's a long way from any of the other chess topics covered on this thread, unless there is some sort of re-pairings angle.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Alan Atkinson » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:44 pm

My understanding is that the game will not be rated by fide if it is not in compliance with their rules

They cannot be required to rate a game that they do not wish to handle

The 4NCL and elsewhere may choose to make their games rate-able by complying with FIDEs requirements

Players may refuse to subject themselves to those conditions and refuse to take part in such events

It is very much like individuals refusing to place themselves into a boxing ring: it is not a requirement, but if you choose to box, then you are expected to follow the the regs set out.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:02 pm

Alan Atkinson wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:44 pm
My understanding is that the game will not be rated by fide if it is not in compliance with their rules
Which rules do you have in mind? It might be helpful if you were to identify the source of your understanding.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:51 pm

In practice, there's probably quite a wide gulf between "things that could technically stop an organization's games being rated" and "things that actually would stop an organization's games being rated".

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:02 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:51 pm
In practice, there's probably quite a wide gulf between "things that could technically stop an organization's games being rated" and "things that actually would stop an organization's games being rated".
It's filtered by the national federation's IRO (International Ratings Officer) is it not? I can recall a row between the ECF's IRO (not an employee at the time) and a Congress organiser about something fairly trivial.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:32 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:38 pm
I'm not seeing how.
On the one hand, FIDE's Anti-Cheating Commission is saying that their rules override national law. On the other hand, FIDE's Rules Commission is saying that national law overrides their rules. If FIDE are using the boxing analogy to justify the Anti-Cheating rules, then that seems inconsistent with what is written in the FIDE Tournament Rules.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:39 pm

Alan Atkinson wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:44 pm
My understanding is that the game will not be rated by fide if it is not in compliance with their rules

They cannot be required to rate a game that they do not wish to handle

The 4NCL and elsewhere may choose to make their games rate-able by complying with FIDEs requirements

Players may refuse to subject themselves to those conditions and refuse to take part in such events

It is very much like individuals refusing to place themselves into a boxing ring: it is not a requirement, but if you choose to box, then you are expected to follow the the regs set out.
I think the problem with the Anti-Cheating regulations is that their method of enforcing it is saying that the games won't be rated. However, QC has so far shown no appetite for not rating games that don't comply with the Anti-Cheating regulations, so what's the point of complying with FIDE's Anti-Cheating Regulations if QC won't enforce the sanction?

Furthermore, what's the point of complying with the Anti-Cheating Regulations if FIDE's own Level 1 events do not? According to the Regulations that I think were passed in Batumi (although as Nick has said, we await the minutes, if not with excitement), watches and pens should be banned from the playing area, yet I'm informed that watches are permitted in the playing area in the World Youth Championship that's about to start in Halkidiki. At the European Club Cup last week, people were allowed to take their own pens in. But maybe the proposal was amended in the end?

So if FIDE aren't enforcing the sanction in the regulations, and in any case FIDE's own competitions aren't complying with the regulations that pending the publication of minutes we think have been passed, why should the rest of us?

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:15 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:39 pm
Furthermore, what's the point of complying with the Anti-Cheating Regulations if FIDE's own Level 1 events do not? According to the Regulations that I think were passed in Batumi (although as Nick has said, we await the minutes, if not with excitement), watches and pens should be banned from the playing area, yet I'm informed that watches are permitted in the playing area in the World Youth Championship that's about to start in Halkidiki. At the European Club Cup last week, people were allowed to take their own pens in. But maybe the proposal was amended in the end?

So if FIDE aren't enforcing the sanction in the regulations, and in any case FIDE's own competitions aren't complying with the regulations that pending the publication of minutes we think have been passed, why should the rest of us?
Won't any new Regulations come into effect on 1st July 2019, as is the usual practice?

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:24 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:15 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:39 pm
Furthermore, what's the point of complying with the Anti-Cheating Regulations if FIDE's own Level 1 events do not? According to the Regulations that I think were passed in Batumi (although as Nick has said, we await the minutes, if not with excitement), watches and pens should be banned from the playing area, yet I'm informed that watches are permitted in the playing area in the World Youth Championship that's about to start in Halkidiki. At the European Club Cup last week, people were allowed to take their own pens in. But maybe the proposal was amended in the end?

So if FIDE aren't enforcing the sanction in the regulations, and in any case FIDE's own competitions aren't complying with the regulations that pending the publication of minutes we think have been passed, why should the rest of us?
Won't any new Regulations come into effect on 1st July 2019, as is the usual practice?
That practice seems to have disappeared. As you may remember, the Arbiters Commission changed regulations that were effective immediately, and it meant that an English applicant's title application was rejected.

The Laws of Chess, and the QC title regulations, seem to be the only things that still do that as a matter of course of the meetings I normally attend.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:37 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:39 pm

So if FIDE aren't enforcing the sanction in the regulations, and in any case FIDE's own competitions aren't complying with the regulations that pending the publication of minutes we think have been passed, why should the rest of us?
The "easy" form of cheating is the same as it has always been, namely that assessments or move suggestions are given to players. There would be a spot where players would be strong enough to make use of the suggestions, but not strong enough that the engine ideas were either derided as wrong or something they already knew.

The integrity of "over the board" competition is assured by removing any suggestions that third parties whether engines or otherwise have been consulted for advice. If you want theatre then ban watches and pens, otherwise just eliminate third party contact during games.

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Re: Repercussions / Fallout from FIDE Elections?

Post by shaunpress » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:55 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:15 pm

ACC's main argument, that they mentioned twice in the 15 minutes I was there, was that if you take part in a boxing fight you can't then report your opponent to the police for assault afterwards, on the grounds that he'd been punching you in the face. So boxing's rules beat the national laws.
The flaw in the ACC argument is that boxing is an activity that is explicitly licensed in a country, and that licence is based upon legislation passed by the relevant legislative body. Therefore the activity is legal, because the law of the land says it is. I assume unlicensed boxing matches are still illegal in most (if not all) countries.

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