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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:27 pm
by Ian Thompson
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:13 am
[Perhaps if a G/120 format became popular, a new time control could be devised where the flow of the game was not interrupted by a claim and arbiter intervention, but a delay or increment was automatically applied when one of the players hit their last two minutes.
USCF rules allow the arbiter to introduce a delay (when there wasn't one before) following a draw claim. One source describes it thus - "in an insufficient losing chances claim [one option] is to place a time delay clock on the board, with the claimant having 1/2 his/her remaining time up to 1 minute (read maximum - 1 minute) with a 5 second delay and the opponent having all his/her time plus the delay. Assuming the game is really a draw, with a 5 second delay, it can be proven on the board."

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:21 pm
by LawrenceCooper
Round 1 saw five draws and five armageddon games with white winning four of them.

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:57 pm
by David Robertson
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:21 pm
Round 1 saw five draws and five armageddon games with white winning four of them.
My verdict (fwiw)?
Farce

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:01 pm
by Alex Holowczak
David Robertson wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:57 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:21 pm
Round 1 saw five draws and five armageddon games with white winning four of them.
My verdict (fwiw)?
Farce
It's not clear to me what the Armageddon game is there to do. Is it an incentive designed to reduce the number of draws in the long game? Are they some excitement after the drawn games?

At least with the KO format as per the Grand Prix, I can explain why there's a need for the quicker time-limit playoffs afterwards.

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:16 pm
by David Robertson
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:01 pm
It's not clear to me what the Armageddon game is there to do
It incentivises quick draws, or risk-free 'suck-it-and-see' play by White in the certain knowledge that you get a second bite in the slap-up of the Armageddon. Just rubbish. Typical bureaucratic, arbiter-nexus, admin non-chess-player solution

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:30 pm
by NickFaulks
David Robertson wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:16 pm
It incentivises quick draws
Given the scoring system, that is one thing it certainly does not do.

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:38 pm
by David Robertson
NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:30 pm
David Robertson wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:16 pm
It incentivises quick draws
Given the scoring system, that is one thing it certainly does not do.
Yes, it does. Chess is an exercise in risk-aversion

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:17 pm
by Alex Holowczak
David Robertson wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:16 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:01 pm
It's not clear to me what the Armageddon game is there to do
It incentivises quick draws, or risk-free 'suck-it-and-see' play by White in the certain knowledge that you get a second bite in the slap-up of the Armageddon. Just rubbish. Typical bureaucratic, arbiter-nexus, admin non-chess-player solution
Actually, I think it is probably nothing to do with the arbiters, who probably aren't involved at all in the format of the event. They will just turn up to administer it.

I suspect it may be more to do with the organisers and broadcasters.

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:37 pm
by David Robertson
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:17 pm
I suspect it may be more to do with the organisers and broadcasters
Please don't mollify my rants

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:51 am
by LawrenceCooper
David Robertson wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:57 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:21 pm
Round 1 saw five draws and five armageddon games with white winning four of them.
My verdict (fwiw)?
Farce
The sight of Aronian's and Grischuk's pieces rolling around the board in their final seconds (around 4 hours into the video https://en.chessbase.com/post/altibox-norway-chess-live) did indeed match your description.

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:07 am
by Mick Norris
I see MVL won the blitz and is now number 1 ahead of Carlsen (2947.8 v 2919.6 on the live ratings)

Pete Doggers report on the blitz

TWIC

Round 1 report from Chess Mind

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:36 am
by Richard Bates
If the point of the Armageddon is to influence the chess in the main tournament *in a positive way* then they’ve got it back to front. What they should have done is have the Armageddon only after games with a decisive result, a second opportunity for any defeated player, if you like. Eg. Players draw 0.5-0.5. Player A wins game and Armageddon 1-0. Player A wins game, B wins Armageddon 1-0.5

In general the evidence for alternative formats being able to change the playing approach of players seems sketchy at best (at least in a positive direction - plenty of examples of formats pushing players towards risk averse approaches, tiebreaks on draws being one of the most obvious culprits). Maybe the format of this tournament will prove a slow burner by creating “artificial” gaps in the standings, but i’m sceptical. Most players have a playing style and are loathe to change it, except in the circumstances of individual “must win” games.

Best way for organisers to generate “exciting” tournaments is in player selection - a range of different player styles and/or a mix of playing strengths. And generally increasing the number of players helps.

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:57 am
by Alex Holowczak
Maybe the idea of the Armageddon is to make it so farcical that people take more risks in the main game to avoid it? :?

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:50 am
by David Robertson
Richard Bates wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:36 am
Best way for organisers to generate “exciting” tournaments is in player selection
Exactly so (though not, exactly, So)

Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:35 pm
by Adam Ashton
Richard Bates wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:36 am
If the point of the Armageddon is to influence the chess in the main tournament *in a positive way* then they’ve got it back to front. What they should have done is have the Armageddon only after games with a decisive result, a second opportunity for any defeated player, if you like. Eg. Players draw 0.5-0.5. Player A wins game and Armageddon 1-0. Player A wins game, B wins Armageddon 1-0.5

In general the evidence for alternative formats being able to change the playing approach of players seems sketchy at best (at least in a positive direction - plenty of examples of formats pushing players towards risk averse approaches, tiebreaks on draws being one of the most obvious culprits). Maybe the format of this tournament will prove a slow burner by creating “artificial” gaps in the standings, but i’m sceptical. Most players have a playing style and are loathe to change it, except in the circumstances of individual “must win” games.

Best way for organisers to generate “exciting” tournaments is in player selection - a range of different player styles and/or a mix of playing strengths. And generally increasing the number of players helps.
I agree. Using rapid and blitz to affect classical standings always leaves a bad taste imho. Therefore you need a system which encourages players to win normal classical games. Presumably for the elite players this would be a limited swiss. Of course more players = more expense and if I was organising I can see the appeal of a straightforward RR. In which case, choose interesting players.