European team championships, Poland

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Chris Dossett
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European team championships, Poland

Post by Chris Dossett » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:56 am

I read with dismay that England have decided not to send a women's team to Poland this November, due to financial reasons. I am baffled how this can be such a low priority to the ECF when it comes to spending money. How can chess be taken seriously as a sport with this attitude to a major international tournament? Apparently this is because a coach was not affordable for the women's team. Why couldn't they share the coach going with the open team? It's a very sad day for English chess in my opinion.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:09 am

Chris Dossett wrote:I read with dismay that England have decided not to send a women's team to Poland this November, due to financial reasons. I am baffled how this can be such a low priority to the ECF when it comes to spending money. How can chess be taken seriously as a sport with this attitude to a major international tournament? Apparently this is because a coach was not affordable for the women's team. Why couldn't they share the coach going with the open team? It's a very sad day for English chess in my opinion.
Welcome Chris, there is a couple of long threads on this one already so please have a quick look around.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Paul Bielby
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Paul Bielby » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:11 am

Next time, perhaps the ECF could send a women's team plus coach and not send an Open (men's) team.
This could result in a MUCH greater saving of money.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:40 am

Paul Bielby wrote:.
This could result in a MUCH greater saving of money.
The thing is though, is that if the ECF has any value to its existence, it's to enable English teams to compete and win on a world stage. Or do you not think that is a valid objective? Given what I've seen in the past in NCCU Minutes, you may not be alone in that belief.

Paul Bielby
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Paul Bielby » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:41 pm

My tongue was firmly in my cheek when I wrote that comment, Roger.

But as you seem to take it seriously, there's many a true word ........

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:19 pm

[quote="Roger de CoverlyThe thing is though, is that if the ECF has any value to its existence, it's to enable English teams to compete and win on a world stage. Or do you not think that is a valid objective? ....[/quote]

It is a valid objective, yes.

The trouble is that it has become the only objective, quite clearly the only one among many that fall into the international directorate which this director actually cares about.

Winning can only be an objective, can't it Roger? Otherwise we would not send an open team most of the time either. By your reasoning, only ten or so teams would ever enter international competition (that does seem to be your reasoning, bizarre though it sounds, when you express yourself in terms such as "if there is any value to its existence")... The probability of even this open team coming anywhere near the medals is low: probably under 10% if you just look at the ratings, in my view less than 5% if we take into account all past performances this century.

This is indeed covered elsewhere: the steady demise of the womens' team was tracked in "Team England" (a better heading can now be imagined!) in International, and in the AGM section in ECF Matters. Just to say here that it was not only about the coach. That just caused one player to withdraw - and since she was the one player receiving a fee, that could have been used to find a coach. But no, there were also other cuts to the womens' team that were under way by now: it had also been decided to send only four players - ie, they were now being asked to play uncoached and unrested. And in most cases, asked at the last minute too.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:28 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:"if there is any value to its existence"
I see little or no value in an organisation that imposes compulsory membership requirements in order to finance itself to run an office to collect and enforce compulsory membership payments.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:07 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:"if there is any value to its existence"
I see little or no value in an organisation that imposes compulsory membership requirements in order to finance itself to run an office to collect and enforce compulsory membership payments.
I didn't see that coming :lol:

But you said there is no value in its existence unless it is trying to win things - which is rather extreme, membership or no.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:15 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote: But you said there is no value in its existence unless it is trying to win things - which is rather extreme, membership or no.
Competing and trying to win. For a national team, that means entering competitions eligible only for national teams and endeavouring to send the best available teams.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:39 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote: But you said there is no value in its existence unless it is trying to win things - which is rather extreme, membership or no.
Competing and trying to win. For a national team, that means entering competitions eligible only for national teams and endeavouring to send the best available teams.
still very narrow. Anyway, as said about a hundred time already on this forum, the ECF did have one of its best women teams for some years available, less than a month ago.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:10 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote: the ECF did have one of its best women teams for some years available, less than a month ago.
So where did the wheels fall off? Was the April budget unduly optimistic as to the private support that could be raised for the Poland Euro Championships and the Norway Olympiad? Or was it the political imperative to declare the membership scheme a success by not increasing membership costs? As Sean writes elsewhere, 50p on memberships across the board would have covered it. For that matter, so would the windfall profits from the success of the British Championships.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:12 pm

I would go for the third option - perhaps there are other things in play here than the ECF membership scheme! :o

They did have more than enough resources to field a representative womens team as it is, and a highly representative open team. But it was desired to send the bast possible open team and so that was that. It is question about wrong priorities and lack of understanding about the negative impact of not sending a womens' team/showing disrespect for the womens' team. That is what the rest of us are discussing. And guess what, these questions will recur regardless of how much money we find (something our new President has anticipated).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:18 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote: And guess what, these questions will recur regardless of how much money we find (something our new President has anticipated).
The forum gets a complimentary international name check, in addition to the quotations from chessbase and chessvibes on the new President.

http://chessexpress.blogspot.co.uk/2013 ... world.html
This has sparked a debate on the always entertaining English Chess Forum about the merits of paying for a coach, and the expenditure on the team itself.
The flipside to this is that the ECF has decided against sending a women's team at all. Possibly they felt they did not have enough applicants of sufficient quality to justify sending a team, although sayings involving 'chickens and eggs' come to mind.

John Philpott

Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by John Philpott » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:57 pm

As I have recently posted on another thread, the following announcement has now appeared on the ECF website
England Women’s Team

After further discussion with the European Chess Union, the English Chess Federation is pleased to announce the participation of the England Women’s Team in the 2013 European Team Championships.

This nine-round event will take place in Warsaw from November 8th to 17th. The team will consist of –
IM Dagne Ciuksyte, WIM Sabrina Chevannes, WGM Anya Corke, WFM Meri Grigoryan and WFM Kanwal Bhatia.

This event will bring together top players in the world’s strongest continental team championship.
Best wishes to our team!

- David Openshaw, International Director

Chris Dossett
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Re: European team championships, Poland

Post by Chris Dossett » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:37 pm

John Philpott wrote:As I have recently posted on another thread, the following announcement has now appeared on the ECF website
England Women’s Team

After further discussion with the European Chess Union, the English Chess Federation is pleased to announce the participation of the England Women’s Team in the 2013 European Team Championships.

This nine-round event will take place in Warsaw from November 8th to 17th. The team will consist of –
IM Dagne Ciuksyte, WIM Sabrina Chevannes, WGM Anya Corke, WFM Meri Grigoryan and WFM Kanwal Bhatia.

This event will bring together top players in the world’s strongest continental team championship.
Best wishes to our team!

- David Openshaw, International Director
That's really good news. Not only has there been a change of mind regarding entering, but also about the number of players in the squad. Let's hope there was enough money in the pot for a non-playing coach to go with them. Good luck team!

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