A very pertinent blog post

Discuss anything you like about women's chess at home and abroad.
stevencarr

Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by stevencarr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:30 pm


'Couldn't agree more with Ian Kingston's comments. There is also the common phenomenon of victim-blaming - "well if only she had done (x) or (y)....."

Chess as a whole really doesn't take this anywhere near seriously enough; it's a big cultural issue for the game, which is generally just shrugged off or ignored.
I tend not to believe that women receive repeated threats of violent rape at chess congresses.

Nor do I see how writing blog posts saying that women are abused, harrassed ,subjected to sexist comments and threatened if they play chess will attract women into chess. Of course, I may be wrong.

Perhaps lots of girls read that blog post linked to in the opening post and decided they wanted to become chess players.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:38 pm

stevencarr wrote:Nor do I see how writing blog posts saying that women are abused, harrassed ,subjected to sexist comments and threatened if they play chess will attract women into chess.
The point of that blog post is not to attract women into chess; it is to point out to men that the cumulative effect of their behaviour is to drive women away from chess.

stevencarr

Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by stevencarr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:41 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
stevencarr wrote:Nor do I see how writing blog posts saying that women are abused, harrassed ,subjected to sexist comments and threatened if they play chess will attract women into chess.
The point of that blog post is not to attract women into chess; it is to point out to men that the cumulative effect of their behaviour is to drive women away from chess.
So put the perpetrator of this sexual abuse behind bars.

It happens in other sports. People have gone to jail for abusing people they were teaching. Why not in chess?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:45 pm

stevencarr wrote:
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
stevencarr wrote:Nor do I see how writing blog posts saying that women are abused, harrassed ,subjected to sexist comments and threatened if they play chess will attract women into chess.
The point of that blog post is not to attract women into chess; it is to point out to men that the cumulative effect of their behaviour is to drive women away from chess.
So put the perpetrator of this sexual abuse behind bars.

It happens in other sports. People have gone to jail for abusing people they were teaching. Why not in chess?
Because the key word here is "cumulative". If I got the message of the piece correctly, none of the men she was complaining about was doing anything actually illegal; instead, there were multiple low-level interactions which added up to making her feel unwelcome, unwanted and out of place.

stevencarr

Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by stevencarr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:54 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote: Because the key word here is "cumulative". If I got the message of the piece correctly, none of the men she was complaining about was doing anything actually illegal; instead, there were multiple low-level interactions which added up to making her feel unwelcome, unwanted and out of place.
Let me quote some of it to you.

'The worst had yet to come, though : at 16, I was sexually abused by one of my club’s teachers, someone I trusted and respected. I only told my parents and never pressed charges : I feared my clubmates’ reactions. What if their favorite adult got fired because of a girl?'

Would you agree that one of the main reasons so few girl junior chess players become adult women chess players is because of sexist comments during games?

I don't know why so few women play chess. Has there been a survey done?

Personally, I would say it was because their female teenage friends think it uncool to play chess, so there is peer pressure.

Of course, I could be wrong once more. I just venture that as an opinion.

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Rob Thompson
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Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by Rob Thompson » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:34 pm

stevencarr wrote: Of course, I could be wrong once more.
Well at least something in your posts is accurate, i guess.
True glory lies in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read.

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Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:38 pm

stevencarr wrote: 'The worst had yet to come, though : at 16, I was sexually abused by one of my club’s teachers, someone I trusted and respected. I only told my parents and never pressed charges : I feared my clubmates’ reactions. What if their favorite adult got fired because of a girl?'
Ah, good spot, I'd missed that one. Yes, that's a straightforward case of actually illegal behaviour in amongst the microaggressions. If the perpetrator had been reported he might have been convicted, he might not, but either way, I can see why she didn't want to press charges.

stevencarr

Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by stevencarr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:39 pm

Rob Thompson wrote:
stevencarr wrote: Of course, I could be wrong once more.
Well at least something in your posts is accurate, i guess.
In an effort to educate myself, I read the long thread in this very forum about why so few women play chess compared to bridge.

stevencarr

Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by stevencarr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:42 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
stevencarr wrote: 'The worst had yet to come, though : at 16, I was sexually abused by one of my club’s teachers, someone I trusted and respected. I only told my parents and never pressed charges : I feared my clubmates’ reactions. What if their favorite adult got fired because of a girl?'
Ah, good spot, I'd missed that one. Yes, that's a straightforward case of actually illegal behaviour in amongst the microaggressions. If the perpetrator had been reported he might have been convicted, he might not, but either way, I can see why she didn't want to press charges.
I don't understand why her parents didn't do anything though.

And why did she fear her clubmate's reactions?

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Rob Thompson
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Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by Rob Thompson » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:46 pm

One only needs to see the responses to the victims in rape cases (e.g. Stubenville) to understand why she might fear the reactions of her clubmates.
True glory lies in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read.

stevencarr

Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by stevencarr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:48 pm

Rob Thompson wrote:One only needs to see the responses to the victims in rape cases (e.g. Stubenville) to understand why she might fear the reactions of her clubmates.
No wonder women don't play chess if they get sexually abused and they then fear the reactions of their clubmates. I wouldn't want to join any club with such people as club'mates'.

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Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by PeterFarr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:19 pm

stevencarr wrote:

'Couldn't agree more with Ian Kingston's comments. There is also the common phenomenon of victim-blaming - "well if only she had done (x) or (y)....."

Chess as a whole really doesn't take this anywhere near seriously enough; it's a big cultural issue for the game, which is generally just shrugged off or ignored.
I tend not to believe that women receive repeated threats of violent rape at chess congresses.

Nor do I see how writing blog posts saying that women are abused, harrassed ,subjected to sexist comments and threatened if they play chess will attract women into chess. Of course, I may be wrong.

Perhaps lots of girls read that blog post linked to in the opening post and decided they wanted to become chess players.
When I said "chess doesn't take this seriously enough...." I was referring more generally to sexism / the male-dominated culture of the game, rather than to actual criminal behaviour - my fault for not making that clear.

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Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:59 pm

It is my impression that in Olympic sports, there is a prohibition on males competing against females. It's an issue that comes up every so often in Junior Football.

No such prohibition applies in chess particularly in the UK where female only events are few and far between. There is a certain amount of positive discrimination, for example the existence of female National titles, prizes in Congresses for best female player and the 4NCL rule which has the practical effect of requiring a female player in every first division team.

I'm assuming the original French poster is using a pseudonym as otherwise her former club could be discovered and by implication the possibly accused could be identified.

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Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by Ian Kingston » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:56 am

stevencarr wrote:So your take home message is that rapists can expect to get away with it, and you can increase the chances of women playing chess by telling them that if they are raped, nobody is going to believe them?
A strange conclusion to draw. It is sadly true that rapists and sexual abusers do expect to get away with it because - surprise - by and large that's exactly what happens. The second half of your sentence is exactly the opposite of what I was saying.
stevencarr wrote:The parents should have reported this sexual abuse to the police. End of.
Don't blame the victim. Until the culture that protects abusers and rapists is changed, people will act in ways that minimise the harm to themselves. You need to have a system that takes victims seriously and doesn't punish them for reporting the crime.
stevencarr wrote:I tend not to believe that women receive repeated threats of violent rape at chess congresses.
They (probably) don't. They do receive such threats online.
stevencarr wrote:Nor do I see how writing blog posts saying that women are abused, harrassed ,subjected to sexist comments and threatened if they play chess will attract women into chess. Of course, I may be wrong.
That wasn't the point of the post though, was it? The blogger highlighted a problem. Should she have stayed silent?

stevencarr

Re: A very pertinent blog post

Post by stevencarr » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:24 pm

Should she have stayed silent?

She should have gone to the police, despite you claiming that nobody will believe her, and that the rapist will get away with it, because you tell her she should not report it to the police.

How come sexual abusers are put away in sports like tennis, gymnastics and swimming?

But not chess?

Put these people behind bars. Where they belong.

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