European Women's Championship 2015

Discuss anything you like about women's chess at home and abroad.
benedgell
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by benedgell » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:12 pm

I started laughing as soon as I read the first line: "The main heroine of the last European Championships... Natalia Zhukova..."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:40 pm

Chris Rice wrote: However, what she doesn't explain is why she thought Mihaela Sandu was cheating (except being "little known" does that count as evidence these days?), how she knew a search would reveal nothing
If the accusation was in any way rational, it had to be one that there was a collaborator using the live games feed and suggesting moves, either by a hidden earpiece or a signalling method in the Feller style. No accusations of concealed devices or lengthy spells away from the board have been made.

Otherwise it's just of case of playing good moves against higher rated opponents, which isn't cheating.

On a side issue, the site chess.com has also been making cheating accusations
http://www.chess.com/news/three-tie-aft ... ay-10-3867

I don't know the validity of their assertions, but if taking part in a on-line tournament for money, perhaps lower rated players need to enlist the services of a neutral arbiter to be present and confirm that there isn't any consultation going on. FIDE Arena will face the same problem.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:10 pm

More details here. I'll pop a link in the 'cheating in chess' thread.

http://www.chess.com/blog/DanielRensch/ ... n-chesscom

NickFaulks
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:but if taking part in a on-line tournament for money,
Just don't do it.

I've taken a quick look at the defences of the two players thrown out by chess.com, and they appear quite reasonable. Why would you accuse someone of cheating in a game where they reached an ending three pawns down but then won on time?

edit - Please feel free to move this to the thread where it belongs.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:04 pm

The rating performances from this event have been loaded to the FIDE site.

Sandu's performance
http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calc ... 2015-06-01

She spent most of the tournament playing opponents where her "chance" was around 1 in 4. I doubt winning four such games in a row is that exceptional, especially at a playing standard where improvement is possible.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:38 am

It really isn't, especially when you consider that games are very far from statistically independent events and that there were probably a decent number of players around that standard any one of whom could have got off to a 4/4 start.

A fairly normal sort of event actually.


Kevin Thurlow
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:04 am

http://gardinerchess.com.au/gm-rogers-paranoia/

A very good piece.

Has anyone wondered how the 15th seed won the tournament? Surely that's not much different from the 45th seed leading the event at one stage?

Chris Rice
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:30 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote: Has anyone wondered how the 15th seed won the tournament? Surely that's not much different from the 45th seed leading the event at one stage?
On that one Kevin, Zhukova has a robust defence, she is an incredibly strong player and has been over many years including winning the 2000 EU Women's Championship at Batumi with 13/19. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Zhukova

Your broader point though is completely accepted, in general, are we only going to accept the top seed as the only possible winner without accusing others of cheating? Where do we draw the line? Of course the answer must be that there should not be a line. Cheating accusations should be supported with reasonable grounds ie suspicious behavior, low grade, high percentage of engine matching moves none of which were present in the Sandu case.

Zhukova's behavior actually strikes me as a statistical trap that she has fallen for. Sandu achieved six wins and five losses, a 'normal' result as we have discussed.

If you toss a coin 11 times then you could get six heads and five tails. If the sequence was H-T-H-T-H-T-H-T-H-T-H we would not be surprised and if Sandu's win/loss was W-L-W-L-W-L-W-L-W-L-W no-one would have batted an eyelid.

If you reversed Sandu's results they would go L-L-L-L-W-L-W-W-W-W-W again with the same opponents (remember the most an opponent was rated above her was something like 11 ECF points) I'm sure all that might have been said was she made a great comeback but given she didn't qualify in the top 14 its likely no-one would have noticed her late run of wins at all.

Going back to the coin tossing though, statistically very possible is the sequence H-H-H-H-H (ie W-W-W-W-W in Sandu's case), now do you immediately jump to the conclusion that there must be something wrong with the coin? Quite possibly. It's a natural thing to do. Going back to the dawn of time we have had to look for patterns in nature that alert us to possible dangers, its noticing these that keep often us alive. Its amazing the decisions we make on such little information. For example you see five identical red cars coming up the high street. Do you automatically:

a. Ignore them? It's clearly a coincidence
b. Wonder if someone important is in one of the cars and start peering into the windows?
c. Phone the police, clearly they are about to rob a bank?

The natural reaction without any other information would be a or b you wouldn't go straight to c like Zhukova effectively did. But if you picked b you may notice that the people inside the cars are wearing balaclavas and are armed. At this point you can't be sure that they haven't arrived to rescue hostages but if you did phone the police then at least no-one can say you didn't have reasonable grounds for doing so. (You might also want to consider perhaps running away as fast as as possible at this point).

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:10 pm

On the coin-toss thing, I recall Derren Brown doing a piece where he tossed a coin and it came up heads 10 times in a row, clearly as one camera shot. He then revealed he had spent all day recording that piece, and kept the one he wanted!

My point was indeed that Zhukova should not assume someone is cheating just because they get good results (similarly, if you win a grading-restricted event, you will exceed the grading limit). But maybe it was more a case of making a frivolous complaint to distract the opponent? It's been done before in world championship matches.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:16 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:http://gardinerchess.com.au/gm-rogers-paranoia/

A very good piece.

Has anyone wondered how the 15th seed won the tournament? Surely that's not much different from the 45th seed leading the event at one stage?
Although Zhukova is a lot stronger than Sandu it's an interesting comparison as Zhukova was born in 1979 and Sandu in 1977. One of the arguments put forward for suspecting Sandu was that someone of her age couldn't possibly have such a result. It would be interesting to hear what those putting forward that opinion (eg the President of the ACP) make of Zhukova's 8.5/9 finish.

John McKenna
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by John McKenna » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:12 pm

Perhaps not directly relevant to the OP but from TWIC 1074 -

7th Capo d Orso Open 2015 Porto Mannu Palau ITA
Sat 6th Jun 2015 - Sat 13th Jun 2015

Leading Round 3 (of 9) Standings:

Code: Select all

Rk SNo Name         Ti FED Rtg Pts TB1 TB2 TB3
1 85 Glienke Michael GER 1743 3.0 4.0 4.00 1524.7
2 5 Brunello Sabino GM ITA 2526 2.5 6.0 4.75 2373.3
3 11 Codenotti Marco IM ITA 2397 2.5 5.5 4.50 2389.7 
4 21 Loew Gerald FM GER 2238 2.5 5.5 4.25 2270.7
5 1 Gustafsson Jan GM GER 2640 2.5 5.0 3.75 2370.7
6 6 Rombaldoni Axel GM ITA 2502 2.5 5.0 3.75 2263.0
7 3 Hjartarson Johann GM ISL 2535 2.5 4.5 3.75 2311.0
8 7 De Jong Jan-willem IM NED 2449 2.5 4.5 3.75 2260.0
9 10 Vogt Lothar GM GER 2408 2.5 4.0 3.25 2311.0
10 12 Olafsson Fridrik GM ISL 2397 2.5 4.0 3.25 2284.7
Given the strength and experience of the chasing pack a most unlikely front-runner!!?
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:18 pm

That one is arbiter assisted :) (as his average opposition rather shows.).

"We plan to establish 3 groups, accelerate two of them for 6 rounds, with a further acceleration after round two for those who scored at least 75% in their own group."

Chris Rice
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:36 pm

Martin is right, Michael Glienke played in rounds 1-3, a 1618, 1589 and a 1639 so no surprise he is on 3/3. He got walloped in round 4 by a 2365 and may well lose again in round 5 to a 2151 so nothing to see here. Michael Glienke is 34 years old and it appears his father, Dr Manfred Glienke is an IM. Of course if I was paranoid I could suggest he could be a sandbagger, fortunately I'm not so I'm not suggesting that.

John McKenna
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Re: European Women's Championship 2015

Post by John McKenna » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:04 pm

Thanks to Martin and Chris for clearing up the apparent mystery.

Arbiter-assisted performances can come in many shapes and forms, mostly legit.

Computer-assisted performances should be strictly limited to before and after, the fact of, the game itself.

I can understand how Mrs. Sandu's 4/4, which included the downing of two leading Russian contenders, could easily lead to aspersions being cast. The top 'ladies' may have trouble competing consistently against the top men but they can be fiercely competitive against one another when prestigious titles are at stake (the words "cat" & "fight" spring to mind).
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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