One Hundred years celebration

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Andrew Zigmond
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:03 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:33 pm
John Reyes wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:48 pm
maybe the ECF need to look at this again?
John, please.

There was an enormous amount of discussion and argument about this in 2017 -2018, on this Forum and elsewhere. In the end even the ECF Board concluded in June 2018 that:

"Following Council’s rejection of all the significant proposals to revamp the County Championships, the Board agreed that no further changes would be proposed, and the tournament will continue in its existing format for the foreseeable future."

I appeal to you, and anyone else similarly minded, to accept that with good grace. Then we can all concentrate both on making a success of the Counties Championships as they start their second hundred competitions and on addressing other issues.
I have no wish to re-open that particular debate either so I will limit myself to two points in response. The first this is (and obviously I can't speak for John) you do perhaps have to see things from his perspective as the county I believe he has an allegiance to is unable to participate in the counties championship as much as they would like due to a 44 year old dispute. The second is that, while the board may have resolved not to propose further changes, John is not on the board and is free to campaign for reform if he wishes. That said, I do agree with you that to do so just makes us harder for us all to move on.

Speaking to John directly now - I understand your frustration but I think it may be better to look at other ways of reviving English chess for the up and coming generation.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

John Reyes
Posts: 305
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Location: Manchester

Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by John Reyes » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:06 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:03 am
David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:33 pm
John Reyes wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:48 pm
maybe the ECF need to look at this again?
John, please.

There was an enormous amount of discussion and argument about this in 2017 -2018, on this Forum and elsewhere. In the end even the ECF Board concluded in June 2018 that:

"Following Council’s rejection of all the significant proposals to revamp the County Championships, the Board agreed that no further changes would be proposed, and the tournament will continue in its existing format for the foreseeable future."

I appeal to you, and anyone else similarly minded, to accept that with good grace. Then we can all concentrate both on making a success of the Counties Championships as they start their second hundred competitions and on addressing other issues.
I have no wish to re-open that particular debate either so I will limit myself to two points in response. The first this is (and obviously I can't speak for John) you do perhaps have to see things from his perspective as the county I believe he has an allegiance to is unable to participate in the counties championship as much as they would like due to a 44 year old dispute. The second is that, while the board may have resolved not to propose further changes, John is not on the board and is free to campaign for reform if he wishes. That said, I do agree with you that to do so just makes us harder for us all to move on.

Speaking to John directly now - I understand your frustration but I think it may be better to look at other ways of reviving English chess for the up and coming generation.
Thanks Andrew, I just feel that people are set too much in the past. look at the BDO/PDC spilt and I feel that sometime the ECF need to think of the future, as who is the future of the board?

Where is the new blood?? I turn up to meeting and I feel that I'm one of the youngest people in the room and I'm only 39 years old

Ben Edgill, Hok yin, Alex H
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Andrew Zigmond
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Location: Harrogate

Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:29 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:06 pm


Thanks Andrew, I just feel that people are set too much in the past. look at the BDO/PDC spilt and I feel that sometime the ECF need to think of the future, as who is the future of the board?

Where is the new blood?? I turn up to meeting and I feel that I'm one of the youngest people in the room and I'm only 39 years old

Ben Edgill, Hok yin, Alex H
Aged 37 last October I got asked at a congress how it felt to be a young person surrounded by all these old people! So I know how you feel.

I recognise that there are traditions around the county championship and that some people are rightly very passionate about these. I certainly have no wish to take these traditions away from them. So if we want to do things differently it has to be outwith heritage events. That's fair enough.

And yet. And yet. A lot of existing grassroots activity is centred around the county championships.The debate last year was focused around the open/ minor counties but it's worth noting that the U120/ U100 sections provide useful opportunities for improving players. A young player in Surrey or Nottingham can easily access these opportunities. A young player in Greater Manchester or one of the Chiltern Counties can't due to the County Union silo and I struggle to see how tradition entirely justifies that.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

J T Melsom
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by J T Melsom » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:55 pm

Andrew

You just referenced the county chess situation in the Chilterns. You seem to have made the error also made by others that because the relevant counties do not compete in Union events there is no county chess. The four counties concerned compete within their own competition - within which the number of graded sections has fluctuated in response to demand perceived or actual. Bucks withdrew from the Union event because of the wideing disparity in playing strength across the Union and the related travel times, but we still play county chess!

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:40 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:55 pm
Andrew

You just referenced the county chess situation in the Chilterns. You seem to have made the error also made by others that because the relevant counties do not compete in Union events there is no county chess. The four counties concerned compete within their own competition - within which the number of graded sections has fluctuated in response to demand perceived or actual. Bucks withdrew from the Union event because of the wideing disparity in playing strength across the Union and the related travel times, but we still play county chess!
I understand that and indeed there was talk of allowing the Chiltern Union to become a sixth nominating county union (this was just after I became controller and nothing came of it). I also believe that the Chiltern counties came out of the SCCU, at least in part, because the national stages weren't worth their while, even if they could get past the union stage. And the discrepancy in strength between different counties is always going to be a factor whatever entry system you have.

However the fact remains that an up and coming young player in Surrey, Yorkshire or Nottinghamshire (to pick just three examples out of that hat) is likely to have the chance to play for his county in a prestige event. If he's `unfortunate` enough to live in Buckinghamshire or Greater Manchester he can't. Which is sometimes the way of things in the case of the county championships an enthusiastic parent or local coach can't even get together a team `to give it a go`.

I admit this might be a hypothetical situation and in any case the county championships aren't the most junior friendly competition. I have always preferred a level playing field where opportunity is concerned and dislike silos. Until the county championships allow direct entry (or at the very least wildcard entry for and only for counties that don't - or in the case of Greater Manchester can't, compete in a county union) it will remain a silo.

But that ship has sailed. I'm just making conversation - before anybody jumps down my throat - and my time might be better spent supporting those creating opportunities for young players elsewhere.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:42 am

"However the fact remains that an up and coming young player in Surrey, Yorkshire or Nottinghamshire (to pick just three examples out of that hat) is likely to have the chance to play for his county in a prestige event. If he's `unfortunate` enough to live in Buckinghamshire or Greater Manchester he can't."

Geography is a problem in any form of junior chess. South East has lots of activity, coaching etc. South West (e.g.) has much less, inter-county chess is a much smaller part of that.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:10 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:40 am
is likely to have the chance to play for his county in a prestige event.
Is there really much prestige in the Counties Championship? If you have a weak team, it's just likely to be one match in the national stages where you are out graded. It's not the 4NCL where anyone with contacts, ambition and perhaps money can build a successful squad.

NickFaulks
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:47 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:10 am
Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:40 am
is likely to have the chance to play for his county in a prestige event.
Is there really much prestige in the Counties Championship? If you have a weak team, it's just likely to be one match in the national stages where you are out graded. It's not the 4NCL where anyone with contacts, ambition and perhaps money can build a successful squad.
I would be disappointed if a competition could not be considered prestigious unless it were dominated by contacts and money.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:01 am

In the real world, saying you are playing for "your county" is a relatively easy way to give people an idea of the level you are playing at. Of course, there is much more to it than that, but it is also part of the diversity of options available and the history of the game in this country.

I remember playing in some junior county events in the 1990s. Are there any records of those still around?

J T Melsom
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by J T Melsom » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:38 am

Chess players in Bucks can't compete in the county championship but have other events they can participate in. I think the concept of prestige is a bit over-stated. The point that might have been made is that the Chiltern League is actually an example of chess organised outside the framework of ECF and Unions so the silo effect has been largely broken. I doubt we see our absence as a matter for concern in any regard, and we wouldn't want to change the rules just to let us in.

The idea of the Chiltern League as a separate union was originally floated by a resident of one of the member counties, but not supported by any of the counties themselves. I don't think it was even raised for discussion at the Bucks AGM.

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:45 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:10 am
It's not the 4NCL where anyone with contacts, ambition and perhaps money can build a successful squad.
I don't see a difference. The successful county teams I've played for in the past have been because the team captain has had contacts and ambition. They've managed to get nearly all the best eligible players to play.

That may not be enough to win the Open competition, but it's enough to field a team with a realistic chance of winning the Minor Counties for most counties.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:34 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:38 am
The idea of the Chiltern League as a separate union was originally floated by a resident of one of the member counties, but not supported by any of the counties themselves. I don't think it was even raised for discussion at the Bucks AGM.
The suggested reason for doing so was to enable teams to be entered in the national stages. I don't think any of the four counties had any particular interest and Hampshire can qualify anyway through WECU if they want. Oxford used to be regular participants, but they abandoned that in favour of running 4NCL squads. I do however note that with a paucity of SCCU entries, a Berkshire junior organiser has been persuaded to enter an Under 100 squad in the national stage.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:50 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:34 am
I do however note that with a paucity of SCCU entries, a Berkshire junior organiser has been persuaded to enter an Under 100 squad in the national stage.
The U100 event, while not a junior competition as such, has become very junior friendly in recent years and many captains use it as an opportunity to blood the players of the future. Presumably if there wasn't a paucity of SCCU U100 entries Berkshire wouldn't get a look in. And this is the point - if Berkshire think they can make a U100 team consisting primarily of juniors work in a national competition they should be allowed to enter - they shouldn't have to go through a county union silo.
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Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

John Upham
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by John Upham » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:41 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:34 am
I do however note that with a paucity of SCCU entries, a Berkshire junior organiser has been persuaded to enter an Under 100 squad in the national stage.

This is almost accurate.

Nidhi Gogia, the Treasurer of the Berkshire Junior Chess Association (BJCA) persuaded the BJCA committee to endorse her request to run an U100 team. She was not persuaded.
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John Reyes
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Re: One Hundred years celebration

Post by John Reyes » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:50 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:40 am
J T Melsom wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:55 pm
Andrew

You just referenced the county chess situation in the Chilterns. You seem to have made the error also made by others that because the relevant counties do not compete in Union events there is no county chess. The four counties concerned compete within their own competition - within which the number of graded sections has fluctuated in response to demand perceived or actual. Bucks withdrew from the Union event because of the wideing disparity in playing strength across the Union and the related travel times, but we still play county chess!
I understand that and indeed there was talk of allowing the Chiltern Union to become a sixth nominating county union (this was just after I became controller and nothing came of it). I also believe that the Chiltern counties came out of the SCCU, at least in part, because the national stages weren't worth their while, even if they could get past the union stage. And the discrepancy in strength between different counties is always going to be a factor whatever entry system you have.

However the fact remains that an up and coming young player in Surrey, Yorkshire or Nottinghamshire (to pick just three examples out of that hat) is likely to have the chance to play for his county in a prestige event. If he's `unfortunate` enough to live in Buckinghamshire or Greater Manchester he can't. Which is sometimes the way of things in the case of the county championships an enthusiastic parent or local coach can't even get together a team `to give it a go`.

I admit this might be a hypothetical situation and in any case the county championships aren't the most junior friendly competition. I have always preferred a level playing field where opportunity is concerned and dislike silos. Until the county championships allow direct entry (or at the very least wildcard entry for and only for counties that don't - or in the case of Greater Manchester can't, compete in a county union) it will remain a silo.

But that ship has sailed. I'm just making conversation - before anybody jumps down my throat - and my time might be better spent supporting those creating opportunities for young players elsewhere.

I always wonder if you can set up a Union, as I did think maybe contact the Cheshire and north wales, and Merseyside and other one and call it the North west union!!
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

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