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Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:20 pm
by David Sedgwick
John Reyes wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:50 pm
I always wonder if you can set up a Union, as I did think maybe contact the Cheshire and north wales, and Merseyside and other one and call it the North west union!!
There would be hurdles to overcome.
The new Union would have to be of viable size. Four counties would probably be about the minimum.
Then you would have to persuade the ECF to accept the new Union as a Constituent Member.
Originally there were only three Unions: MCCU, NCCU and SCCU, with the SCCU being much larger than it is today.
Then the WECU (1940s) and the EACU (1980s) were formed mainly from former SCCU member counties. The SCCU did not object to their formation and I would not expect them to object to the formation of a new Chiltern Union (although I don't speak for them).
Similarly I would not expect the SCCU to object to the formation of a new North West Union.
However, I am far from confident that no other Union or county would do so.
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:01 pm
by Andrew Zigmond
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:20 pm
John Reyes wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:50 pm
I always wonder if you can set up a Union, as I did think maybe contact the Cheshire and north wales, and Merseyside and other one and call it the North west union!!
There would be hurdles to overcome.
The new Union would have to be of viable size. Four counties would probably be about the minimum.
Then you would have to persuade the ECF to accept the new Union as a Constituent Member.
Originally there were only three Unions: MCCU, NCCU and SCCU, with the SCCU being much larger than it is today.
Then the WECU (1940s) and the EACU (1980s) were formed mainly from former SCCU member counties. The SCCU did not object to their formation and I would not expect them to object to the formation of a new Chiltern Union (although I don't speak for them).
Similarly I would not expect the SCCU to object to the formation of a new North West Union.
However, I am far from confident that no other Union or county would do so.
Who would have the final say and/ or a power of veto? The ECF board? Council? I can only think of one county union that would have an objection and nobody else really cares what they think anyway.
If John is serious about it I would suggest contacting Cheshire & NW and Merseyside ASAP. The third competing county might be Greater Manchester, if only to give players county chess without having to travel all the way to the Midlands. If it gets off the ground and given that there is no bar to a county association joining two unions (and thus getting two bites of the cherry) I'm sure I could persuade Yorkshire to make it four.
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:11 pm
by Mick Norris
That's fairly close to Martin Regan's suggestion of forming a Northern Chess Federation, with the idea that everyone could join it and leave Lancs in the NCCU (I'm paraphrasing here)
Actually, Lancs could join, but not bring their NCCU right of veto with them
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:38 pm
by David Sedgwick
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:01 pm
Who would have the final say and/ or a power of veto? The ECF board? Council? I can only think of one county union that would have an objection and nobody else really cares what they think anyway.
If that is the case, then why was the proposal to admit Greater Manchester to the NCCU defeated a few years ago?
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:32 pm
by Andrew Zigmond
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:38 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:01 pm
Who would have the final say and/ or a power of veto? The ECF board? Council? I can only think of one county union that would have an objection and nobody else really cares what they think anyway.
If that is the case, then why was the proposal to admit Greater Manchester to the MCCU defeated a few years ago?
I'm assuming you mean NCCU rather than the MCCU where Greater Manchester currently compete. The objection would come from the specific county union that rejected the application as opposed to just one of the county associations within. In any case there are progressive voices with many of the Northern Counties (including Lancashire), unfortunately they are drowned out by those stuck in the past.
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:46 pm
by David Sedgwick
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:32 pm
I'm assuming you mean NCCU rather than the MCCU where Greater Manchester currently compete.
Indeed so. I have edited my post.
Apologies for any confusion.
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:32 pm
The objection would come from the specific county union that rejected the application as opposed to just one of the county associations within. In any case there are progressive voices with many of the Northern Counties (including Lancashire), unfortunately they are drowned out by those stuck in the past.
Please see
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1931&start=195, which is the relevant page of a long thread.
The minutes of the NCCU meeting in question merely report that the application by the MCF to affiliate was rejected, with no details of numbers or of who voted which way.
My point was, for that to have been the outcome, more than one county must have opposed the application.
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:24 am
by Neil Graham
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:38 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:01 pm
Who would have the final say and/ or a power of veto? The ECF board? Council? I can only think of one county union that would have an objection and nobody else really cares what they think anyway.
If that is the case, then why was the proposal to admit Greater Manchester to the NCCU defeated a few years ago?
The NCCU Constitution reads as follows:-
3) Membership of the NCCU is limited to recognised County Chess Associations within the territory of the NCCU (A recognised CCA is defined as any Association of Chess Clubs combined on a regional basis with the express consent of the NCCU Council). Each CCA that joins the NCCU undertakes to pay the annual subscription and/or fee as defined and determined by the NCCU at a previous Annual General Meeting. No new CCA will be admitted to the NCCU unless the following two conditions are met:
a) There is evidence that the new CCA has the support of a majority of both Clubs and Players in the area it purports to cover.
b) The existing CCA covering that area has been consulted and given twelve months notice in writing of the intention to admit a new CCA. Unless otherwise agreed any CCA newly admitted to the NCCU assumes the rights and obligations of all other constituent organizations.
My view is that the above conditions make it virtually impossible for Manchester or indeed any other body to upset the NCCU status quo.
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:02 am
by Andrew Zigmond
Neil Graham wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:24 am
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:38 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:01 pm
Who would have the final say and/ or a power of veto? The ECF board? Council? I can only think of one county union that would have an objection and nobody else really cares what they think anyway.
If that is the case, then why was the proposal to admit Greater Manchester to the NCCU defeated a few years ago?
The NCCU Constitution reads as follows:-
3) Membership of the NCCU is limited to recognised County Chess Associations within the territory of the NCCU (A recognised CCA is defined as any Association of Chess Clubs combined on a regional basis with the express consent of the NCCU Council). Each CCA that joins the NCCU undertakes to pay the annual subscription and/or fee as defined and determined by the NCCU at a previous Annual General Meeting. No new CCA will be admitted to the NCCU unless the following two conditions are met:
a) There is evidence that the new CCA has the support of a majority of both Clubs and Players in the area it purports to cover.
b) The existing CCA covering that area has been consulted and given twelve months notice in writing of the intention to admit a new CCA. Unless otherwise agreed any CCA newly admitted to the NCCU assumes the rights and obligations of all other constituent organizations.
My view is that the above conditions make it virtually impossible for Manchester or indeed any other body to upset the NCCU status quo.
The last time Manchester applied to join the NCCU the vote was lost 3-4 with four abstentions (two of the votes for were the Yorkshire delegates). So in theory if one other Northern county can be swung around to the Manchester cause the application would be accepted.
My understanding of the original dispute was that Lancashire wanted to stop the ECF recognising Greater Manchester as a county at all. They lost that battle and all they can do now is try to keep Manchester out of the NCCU. My point is that if John was to succeed in setting up a North West County Union and apply to be recognised by the ECF as a nominating county union the NCCU would vote against but are they going to persuade a majority of council to do the same?
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:54 am
by David Sedgwick
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:02 am
The last time Manchester applied to join the NCCU the vote was lost 3-4 with four abstentions (two of the votes for were the Yorkshire delegates). So in theory if one other Northern county can be swung around to the Manchester cause the application would be accepted.
Thank you for the information.
The picture that is often painted, on here and elsewhere, is of a Northen region frustrated by the attitude of Lancashire.
I was questioning the validity of that and I feel that your information justifies my view. The voting figures appear to indicate that, at least in 2014, a majority of NCCU counties were hostile towards or hesitant about admitting the MCF to membership.
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:02 am
My understanding of the original dispute was that Lancashire wanted to stop the ECF recognising Greater Manchester as a county at all. They lost that battle and all they can do now is try to keep Manchester out of the NCCU. My point is that if John was to succeed in setting up a North West County Union and apply to be recognised by the ECF as a nominating county union the NCCU would vote against but are they going to persuade a majority of council to do the same?
Were I still a member of Council, I would be extremely hesitant about supporting any such proposal. Against the background above, it doesn't seem to me to be likely to resolve this 45 year old dispute - rather the reverse.
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:32 am
by Mick Norris
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:54 am
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:02 am
The last time Manchester applied to join the NCCU the vote was lost 3-4 with four abstentions (two of the votes for were the Yorkshire delegates). So in theory if one other Northern county can be swung around to the Manchester cause the application would be accepted.
Thank you for the information.
The picture that is often painted, on here and elsewhere, is of a Northen region frustrated by the attitude of Lancashire.
I was questioning the validity of that and I feel that your information justifies my view. The voting figures appear to indicate that, at least in 2014, a majority of NCCU counties were hostile towards or hesitant about admitting the MCF to membership.
It is officially a secret ballot; I do know that Yorkshire have said they casted 2 votes in favour negating the 2 against from Lancs; there were a number of others who promised to vote in favour and abstained; having put a lot of effort in, and then been at best mislead, I gave up
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:23 pm
by Jon Underwood
I've just been putting together our two teams for the quarter finals. Amongst the replies I've had several along the lines of "thanks for the invitation it's an honour to play for Devon and I'll be delighted to accept". No other competition is going to match that unless you are in with a shout of playing for England.
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:13 pm
by John Reyes
Mick Norris wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:32 am
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:54 am
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:02 am
The last time Manchester applied to join the NCCU the vote was lost 3-4 with four abstentions (two of the votes for were the Yorkshire delegates). So in theory if one other Northern county can be swung around to the Manchester cause the application would be accepted.
Thank you for the information.
The picture that is often painted, on here and elsewhere, is of a Northen region frustrated by the attitude of Lancashire.
I was questioning the validity of that and I feel that your information justifies my view. The voting figures appear to indicate that, at least in 2014, a majority of NCCU counties were hostile towards or hesitant about admitting the MCF to membership.
It is officially a secret ballot; I do know that Yorkshire have said they casted 2 votes in favour negating the 2 against from Lancs; there were a number of others who promised to vote in favour and abstained; having put a lot of effort in, and then been at best mislead, I gave up
We know the New NCCU chairperson don't think Greater Manchester should exist
Also I did challenge him as the NCCU chairperson but told the meeting that he was asked to be the chair, which I believe is not true?
does anyone from the nccu clubs can voucher for that?
also it is something to maybe think about?
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:06 am
by Andrew Zigmond
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:54 am
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:02 am
The last time Manchester applied to join the NCCU the vote was lost 3-4 with four abstentions (two of the votes for were the Yorkshire delegates). So in theory if one other Northern county can be swung around to the Manchester cause the application would be accepted.
Thank you for the information.
The picture that is often painted, on here and elsewhere, is of a Northen region frustrated by the attitude of Lancashire.
I was questioning the validity of that and I feel that your information justifies my view. The voting figures appear to indicate that, at least in 2014, a majority of NCCU counties were hostile towards or hesitant about admitting the MCF to membership.
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:02 am
My understanding of the original dispute was that Lancashire wanted to stop the ECF recognising Greater Manchester as a county at all. They lost that battle and all they can do now is try to keep Manchester out of the NCCU. My point is that if John was to succeed in setting up a North West County Union and apply to be recognised by the ECF as a nominating county union the NCCU would vote against but are they going to persuade a majority of council to do the same?
Were I still a member of Council, I would be extremely hesitant about supporting any such proposal. Against the background above, it doesn't seem to me to be likely to resolve this 45 year old dispute - rather the reverse.
The NCCU county DELEGATES to the NCCU were hostile or hesitant about admitting the MCF to membership, rather than the NCCU counties themselves. There is a difference. As the majority of the Northern Counties don't play county chess, whether or not the MCF are admitted doesn't really matter either way.
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:17 am
by Roger de Coverly
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:06 am
The NCCU county DELEGATES to the NCCU were hostile or hesitant about admitting the MCF to membership, rather than the NCCU counties themselves. There is a difference.
If there's a majority inside the county associations within the NCCU in favour of abandoning this ancient feud and the delegates to the NCCU are in favour of continuing it, is there any other solution than removing said delegates from office?
Re: One Hundred years celebration
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:36 am
by Andrew Zigmond
Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:17 am
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:06 am
The NCCU county DELEGATES to the NCCU were hostile or hesitant about admitting the MCF to membership, rather than the NCCU counties themselves. There is a difference.
If there's a majority inside the county associations within the NCCU in favour of abandoning this ancient feud and the delegates to the NCCU are in favour of continuing it, is there any other solution than removing said delegates from office?
I suspect a lot of people in the Northern Counties are not even aware of the ancient feud and those that are probably don't feel strongly enough to oust a long standing delegate who has probably served their county well in most respects.