no recognition for finalists

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Martin Crichton
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no recognition for finalists

Post by Martin Crichton » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:12 pm

yes that was the disgraceful case in the 2010 finals in Leicester... I was disgusted to only learn on the day a few minutes before the event that there would be no medals or trophies for any of the compeditors last year.
Had I known in advance I would never have bothered to make the journey from London in the first instance and I have written to my team captain recently and informed him that whilst I am available for matches to help Middlesex progress to the finals that this year I certainly will not be travelling to Leicester to compete in the finals should our team progress that far without knowing in advance that the players will at least get some form of recognition for getting to the finals.
---------------------------
I don't care how short of money the ECF is... if they can't stump up a few quid for a medal or trophy they can (beep beep beep.... edited for content:) MC ) No other sport has such an appalling lack of recognition for the best teams in the country. I am probably alone in my views but so be it if all others are happy to turn out for the fun of it. I am standing firmly by my views.
Last edited by Martin Crichton on Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alex Holowczak
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:24 pm

Let's say the ECF pay £5 per trophy (including some engraving on the plaque, but you might be able to negotiate that given the bulk buy). They need 16 for each of the Open, Minor, U180, U160, U140, and 12 for the U120 and the U100. That's 104 trophies. At £5 each, that's £520.

You need to think of the bigger picture than "I never had a trophy". Even £500 is a significant percentage of the budget for the Director of Home Chess.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:29 pm

There is a "Have your say to the Chief Executive" in the ECF matters section if you feel strongly about it Martin!
Cheers
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Martin Crichton
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Martin Crichton » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:36 pm

the bigger picture... ah yes I can see it now..... if every player had my view... there would be a nice big empty basketball court in Leicester on July 2nd 2011 :)
I don't give a monkeys about the £500 the ECF needs to find...
Football players, Rugby players , Cricket players get very nice recognition (tens of thousands of pounds each plus national fame lol) I know chess is a very poor relative but if the national body isn't prepared to stump up a poxy medal or trophy they might as well abandon the event as far as I am concerned... they certainly won't be getting my support.

ps Carl...
as you probably know I don't post often here so not very familiar with the site layout....I would assume my topic is in the correct category i.e. county championships? To that effect I like to draw other peoples attention to my beef that way perhaps if there is sufficient support perhaps the Chief exec will address the matter!
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Alex Holowczak
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:42 pm

martin crichton wrote:I don't give a monkeys about the £500 the ECF needs to find...
Clearly.

Did the SCCU award individual trophies for the winner of each section?

Martin Crichton
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Martin Crichton » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:46 pm

sccu? what is sccu ...don't answer that...
most people dont know or care... my post is about the national championships of the country.
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Alex Holowczak
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:52 pm

The point being, I can't think of any subnational entity that awards trophies on an individual basis in a team event. It's not that unusual therefore for the national body not to either.

The 4NCL doesn't, unless I missed 50+ trophies in the Tournament Office at Hinckley Island.

I really don't think this is much of a big deal, to be honest. I'll still turn out for Worcestershire if I'm lucky enough to get to the Finals. I couldn't care less about any of the trophies to be honest, the fact that we'd win would be enough for me!

You would like the BUCA event though. We have a brand new trophy. Not only does the winning University go on it, but so do all of the names of the people who played in that team. You also get a trophy to keep; we can afford them since there's only one event and it's a team of 4. So you get something to keep, and your own name gets to go on the trophy. I don't know of any other chess trophy in England that has the individual names of the players in the winning team on it!

Neill Cooper
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Neill Cooper » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:05 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:The point being, I can't think of any subnational entity that awards trophies on an individual basis in a team event. It's not that unusual therefore for the national body not to either.
Correction, the SCCU Junior organiser (me) ensures that for the SCCU U18 Jamboree (coming up soon on Sunday April 3rd - http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/junjam.htm) there are awards for winners and runners up, and for the U14/U130 tournament for both final teams. Typical cost £2 per player, covered for by entry fees.

Also the ECF U18 Jamboree which I ran last year had winner's trophies (which John Nunn kindly handed out).

I'm sure you will have noticed that these were all U18 events, but they still are counter-examples to Alex's claim!

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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Neill Cooper wrote:Correction, the SCCU Junior organiser (me) ensures that for the SCCU U18 Jamboree (coming up soon on Sunday April 3rd - http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/junjam.htm) there are awards for winners and runners up, and for the U14/U130 tournament for both final teams. Typical cost £2 per player, covered for by entry fees.

Also the ECF U18 Jamboree which I ran last year had winner's trophies (which John Nunn kindly handed out).

I'm sure you will have noticed that these were all U18 events, but they still are counter-examples to Alex's claim!
I knew of the latter; I was there!

I would perhaps expect it at a junior event, but not at an adult event.

I'm sure the ECF could afford to award trophies if they put up the entry fee to counties. If Neill knows of places that sell trophies for £2, then rounding down to £32 should just about cover it over an average section entry of 10 teams. So that'd be a hike of, say, £5 per team. Would counties be prepared to pay that if it meant they got trophies if they won? At least it's a price rise with justification.

David Sedgwick
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:23 pm

I don't think the thread starter has done himself any favours with the way he's chosen to express his views in his posts on this thread. However, he does have a point.

When the ECF decided last year to dispense on cost grounds with the individual trophies at the Counties Championships Finals, it was my understanding that the members of the winning teams would each be sent a personalised certificate by the ECF Office after the event. This would have been a much cheaper alternative, but still have given all the winners some recognition.

I played in four losing finals, over twenty-three years, before finally playing in a winning team at the 2008 Finals. It meant a lot to me and it's nice to have a memento of the day.

Can Adam Raoof or Alex Holowczak explain what happened about the certificates? Can they be sent out to the 2010 winners, even now? Can appropriate procedures be put in place for 2011?

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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:32 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:Can Adam Raoof or Alex Holowczak explain what happened about the certificates? Can they be sent out to the 2010 winners, even now? Can appropriate procedures be put in place for 2011?
This was before my time again. :wink:

This is one for Adam to field.

Alan Walton
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:44 pm

I have to agree with Martin here, receiving a small trophy is alot better than recieving a piece of paper saying you are national champions, one year when Manchester won the trophy and recieved no individual trophy, the county paid for a trophy to the players themselves, it is a bit cheap for the federation to not to contribute in a small way

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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:47 pm

Would counties be prepared to pay an extra £5 for a team entry to the national stages to cover the cost of them?

Richard Bates
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:52 am

Perhaps Captains of finalists could be asked in advance which of their players would like a trophy and which frankly couldn't care less? That might reduce some of the cost ;)

Martin Crichton
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Re: no recognition for finalists

Post by Martin Crichton » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:03 am

good to see some interesting comments on the topic...here is my updated feedback...perhaps more food for thought?
so far.....
Alex mentioned that perhaps he was of the opinion that such prizes were perhaps only suitable for juniors and that adults ought not to be too bothered about such things.
Alex also mentions the costs involved....
Alex seems to be wearing an ECF accountants hat on one hand but hypocritically adds a plug for a university event mentioning personally engraved trophies for team winners (thus recognising the importance of recognition even for some unknown local event?)
David is supportive and mentions that such a momentus occasion should be recognised.
David also mentions he achieved county success only once in 23 years of trying (very enlightening comment)
Alan is supportive.
Neill recognises the importance of recognition in his junior events and I think is supportive as well.
Richard (one of our stronger players) remains neutral (probably has hundreds of trophies collecting dust? :) )
Perhaps the majority of chess players have never won a prize in their lives of if they have they have been maybe years apart (15 years in my case 1990 - 2005)
Perhaps players will empathise more when I explain the path involved to reaching the finals to be the best of the best in the UK.
I have not missed a county game in 3 seasons before this season. The path usually involves turning out on 5 to 10 Saturdays (depending on wheter there is a single or double round ) competing against SCCU rivals for the right to progress to the national stages. Normally , like this year, Middlesex u-180 (my county team) progress the difficult route... expected to finish 3rd thus qualifing by the skin of their teeth to play in the national prelims...the prelims are usually a formality as the opposition tends to be weaker (but no such thing as a certainty... we might come unstuck some year)
Winning the prelims gets us to the quarter finals and we tend to avoid the stronger (on paper) SCCU teams until the semis or finals... every other year Middlesex has been in the u-175 u-180 or minor final as far as I can remember in the last decade.
So you can see its a lot of effort and team committment to even reach the final.... many club or county players may never get to a final or win a final but the fact that a team and their players overcome such hurdles by turning out time after time and beating all in their way to reach the final to compete for the title best of the best - national champions, deserves the utmost respect and recognition in my opinion.
Cutting back on prizes to save money is in very poor taste and perhaps not particularly well thought out! Yes I am just a big 45 year old child and I want my trophy if I ever get to play in the national county finals again!
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