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Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:32 am
by Steve Rooney
I agree with Martin here and am surprised that some people have jumped down his throat for daring to suggest that a small amount of money should be spent to recognise those reaching the pinnacle of the county championship. Everyone likes to have their efforts and achievements recognised regardless of age.

Even at a local club match, a captain wil thank players for turning out and congratulate/commiserate after their game. if you win a local league you might hope to get a mention or photo on the association website or the local paper. So for the ECF county championship it's surely not unreasonable to get a medal or at the very least a decent certificate?

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:42 am
by Matthew Turner
Martin has explained the amount of time required to compete in the County Championships. Those players are the bedrock of chess in England, the organisers, the club captains, the sponsors (in all senses of the word). To try to save money by not having trophies is just short-sighted. Yes the ECF does need to save money, but there are much better ways.

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:54 am
by LozCooper
Matthew Turner wrote:Martin has explained the amount of time required to compete in the County Championships. Those players are the bedrock of chess in England, the organisers, the club captains, the sponsors (in all senses of the word). To try to save money by not having trophies is just short-sighted. Yes the ECF does need to save money, but there are much better ways.
I've just located a plaque from 2003 when Staffordshire were Minor Counties champion and a medallion from 1991-92 when Staffordshire won the National County Championship despite the handicap of having me as a captain. Sadly the promised photos from the 91-92 event were never sent and were allegedly lost/deleted by the official photographer so it's nice to have something to remember it by.

From memory, everyone who played in the final received one and I purchased extra ones in 92 for those players who had played in many of the eight games leading up to the final.

I also recall that someone called Carl Hibbard got us over the winning line in 2003 :shock:

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:54 am
by Sean Hewitt
If I recall correctly there were trophies for the winners and runners up at national finals. So the cost is double what Alex outlined - ie circa £1000.

The simplest solution is for Martin to ask his county ECF rep to make a proposal to council. Such a proposal should include how the £1000 per year needed for trophies should be funded. This is either increasing some charge (county champs entry fees, game fee etc) or spending less on something else (whatever that might be). You could even charge the counties who reach the final for their own trophies.

If the majority share his view the trophies will be re-instated.

Personally, I like to have the trophy. But I recognise the perilous state of the ECF finances.

Simples :-)

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:09 am
by Adam Raoof
Firstly, thank you for your feedback.

Cyril Johnson and I discussed the cost of the Finals and decided that we would pay to provide refreshments to all the players for free, and not provide individual trophies. This was because, in our estimation, had we not paid for refreshments, the likelihood of finding someone to take the financial risk of providing refreshments was quite low. Feedback from past events was that the majority of players would prefer that arrangement, and welcomed the generous provision of food and drink. Finalists were not asked for any fee for participating in the finals day.

I was not present at the final. Captains were to be given options by the organisers of the finals and as far as I am aware any Captain who wanted a laminated certificate could have requested one. It is never too late to contact the office!

I am surprised that it took you over six months to make this point, considering how strongly you feel. I haven't had another complaint in all that time, only praise for the way the event was run. Nevertheless this is an important topic, and one which we considered carefully at the time. If you want to contact the new Controller of the Counties Championships, Adrian Elwin, I am sure he will take your views into account.

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:35 am
by Alex Holowczak
martin crichton wrote:Alex mentioned that perhaps he was of the opinion that such prizes were perhaps only suitable for juniors and that adults ought not to be too bothered about such things.
Well, I don't play for prizes, I play for fun. Perhaps that explains my lack of desire to have a trophy.
martin crichton wrote:Alex also mentions the costs involved.... Alex seems to be wearing an ECF accountants hat on one hand but hypocritically adds a plug for a university event mentioning personally engraved trophies for team winners (thus recognising the importance of recognition even for some unknown local event?)
Well, the event in question is the British Universities' Chess Championship. Hardly local! Not too unknown either. If you go to Uni and have a chess society, you've probably heard of it. Who else needs to have done? We could afford 12 trophies + 1 other, so it wasn't a major expense. In fact, my entry fee even included a one-off trophy donation fee, so we could buy the new one.

If the trophies cost £1,000, as Sean suggests, then that's £1,000 that can't spend on something else. So, what would you cut from the ECF's budget? Finance Council is fast approaching, now is the time to speak out.

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:46 am
by Steve Rooney
Alex, you're sounding just like the government ministers who tell us every day there's no alternative to cuts. As in politics, so in chess there is always a choice; players may well be happy to make a contribution and the recognition can be very modest, it doesn't have to be an individual trophy.

I note that the director of home chess has made a rather more considered response to this thread than his alternate.

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:07 am
by Adam Raoof
Steve - you're right about choice! I am generally against any attempt to make up the funding gap by charging players more money, whether it is via game fee or entry fees, or cutting prize funds. Experience has shown me that players want a well run event and can cope with modest prizes in return, but resist what they consider exploitation. If an event is worth having, it's up to us to make it attractive and well run enough for people to enter in larger numbers. When you have an excess of demand over supply, maybe then you can think about increasing the fees and improving the conditions.

BTW, Alex didn't have the benefit of being part of the decision making process ;-)

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:10 am
by LozCooper
Steve Rooney wrote:Alex, you're sounding just like the government ministers who tell us every day there's no alternative to cuts. As in politics, so in chess there is always a choice; players may well be happy to make a contribution and the recognition can be very modest, it doesn't have to be an individual trophy.

I note that the director of home chess has made a rather more considered response to this thread than his alternate.
I'm not sure insulting the alternate and a national tournament he has almost single handedly re-introduced into the tournament calendar is altogether considered :roll:

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:15 am
by Steve Rooney
LozCooper wrote:
Steve Rooney wrote:Alex, you're sounding just like the government ministers who tell us every day there's no alternative to cuts. As in politics, so in chess there is always a choice; players may well be happy to make a contribution and the recognition can be very modest, it doesn't have to be an individual trophy.

I note that the director of home chess has made a rather more considered response to this thread than his alternate.
I'm not sure insulting the alternate and a national tournament he has almost single handedly re-introduced into the tournament calendar is altogether considered :roll:
I din't mention BUCA at all. I stand by my criticism of the way the original post was brushed aside.

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:17 pm
by John Curtis
Several years ago I won 4NCL 'player of the year' (div 3, I'm not that good). I received a small trophy, which was nice, but it wasn't engraved, which wasn't so nice. I was told I could get it engraved myself if I wanted! Years later it sits on a shelf, still unengraved. At least when people ask what it's for I can make something up, depending on my mood.

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:32 pm
by Alex Holowczak
Steve Rooney wrote:Alex, you're sounding just like the government ministers who tell us every day there's no alternative to cuts. As in politics, so in chess there is always a choice; players may well be happy to make a contribution and the recognition can be very modest, it doesn't have to be an individual trophy.

I note that the director of home chess has made a rather more considered response to this thread than his alternate.
Steve, I think Sean and subsequently Adam have summed up the situation perfectly.

If Adam's budget could have afforded trophies, they'd have been there.

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:52 am
by William Metcalfe
Whenever Cleveland has won a national championship or just won a NCCU championship the county has always provided either a trophy or a medal to all players that participated.It is really nice to have some form of momento for winning be it a national champs or just your local league i have a shelf on my sitting room wall unit full of the chess trophys.Whenever children or adults visit my home i can guarantee they always ask what the trophys.medals are for.

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:04 pm
by Sebastian Stone
If Sidmouth with a membership of around 25 can keep 3 trophies in circulation for club tournaments...

Re: no recognition for finalists

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:11 pm
by IM Jack Rudd
Sebastian Stone wrote:If Sidmouth with a membership of around 25 can keep 3 trophies in circulation for club tournaments...
Keeping trophies in circulation is relatively cheap. The subject of the original post is issuing new trophies every year, which is much more expensive.