County Championship Finals

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Andrew Bak
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Andrew Bak » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:15 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:The games can now be seen on the homepage of the ECF website. Board 1 of each final is shown by default; drop the list down to see other games.

Click "Read more" to see the other sections. The direct link to that page is here: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?p=20150#more-20150
Thanks for putting on all the games, as well as for all the time you put in to running the County Championships!

I'll be dissecting some of the more interesting games and positions soon, in the meantime, we've published a detailed report of the U180's match between Yorkshire and Middlesex.

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:07 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:It seems a bit strange, but then I've never really understood the criteria for the Minor competition - is it like a Plate competition for the Open?
It's a competition open to all teams as long as the average of the team is under 180. In the MCCU teams enter either the Open or Minor at the outset of the season. In the SCCU, the Minor seems to be treated as a plate competition.
The SCCU approach is closer to the original concept, but that's not intended as a criticism of the MCCU or any other Union.

When the competition was introduced in 1982, it was for Open teams which had not qualified for the National Stages for five years or longer.

After various refinements and suggested refinements involving quite heated discussions (fortunately before the advent of online forums), we've arrived at the present position where the five year rule has been replaced by the under 180 grading average.

Depending on the Union, there are nowadays two ways in which a county can fail to qualify for the Open but qualify for the Minor:

1. Finishing in the Open Division in the two places immediately below the qualifiers for the Open (SCCU).
2. Entering the Minor section of a competition divided into Open and Minor at outset and finishing in the top two places (MCCU).

This year's winners, Hertfordshire, only got in because Kent declined nomination.

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:25 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:2. Entering the Minor section of a competition divided into Open and Minor at outset and finishing in the top two places (MCCU).
At the risk of being pedantic, the MCCU Minor is actually MCCU Division Two, which is called the Minor just because it's how the Minor places are allocated. Since Division Two is played in accordance with Open rules; i.e. Division One, the MCCU is entitled to make three nominations for the National Stages if it wants regardless of the number of teams in Division One.

In reality, they never would. Staffordshire is the only county that actually averages above 180 these days in the MCCU. Even Warwickshire could only muster 179 v Staffs, and then 171 v Lancs. There's an argument for Warwickshire self-relegating to Division Two.

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:10 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:In reality, they never would.
They did so as recently as 2011, surely?

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:30 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:In reality, they never would.
They did so as recently as 2011, surely?
I'll correct myself! :)

In reality, they're not going to in the foreseeable future.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:06 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Staffordshire is the only county that actually averages above 180 these days in the MCCU. Even Warwickshire could only muster 179 v Staffs, and then 171 v Lancs.
While we are on the subject of average grading for county teams, does anyone know what the strongest ever team in terms of average grade has ever been? I'm assuming it would have taken place in the National Stages, but maybe a local clash may have featured a stronger side at some point? I know the average in the Open final this year was ECF 194 (for both teams). How does that compare to previous years, and has the average ever been over 210?

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:52 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:Staffordshire is the only county that actually averages above 180 these days in the MCCU. Even Warwickshire could only muster 179 v Staffs, and then 171 v Lancs.
While we are on the subject of average grading for county teams, does anyone know what the strongest ever team in terms of average grade has ever been? I'm assuming it would have taken place in the National Stages, but maybe a local clash may have featured a stronger side at some point? I know the average in the Open final this year was ECF 194 (for both teams). How does that compare to previous years, and has the average ever been over 210?
In the 2009 Final, Lancashire averaged 195.3: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... 7/Open.pdf

The 2011 Quarter Final between Surrey and Warwickshire featured a Surrey side that averaged 202: http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/1011/matchbcf.htm

Surrey averaged 201 v Staffordshire in their Semi Final. Must have been pretty depressing for Staffordshire to turn up and see an International Master in the opposing team ... on board 7! They averaged 202 in the Final too.

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Daniel Young » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:58 pm

Cambridgeshire managed to get to 211 (!) in the 1999 final - http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/9899/matchbcf.htm#open

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:06 am

Daniel Young wrote:Cambridgeshire managed to get to 211 (!) in the 1999 final - http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/9899/matchbcf.htm#open
Yes, that was presumably in the days where anyone who was a Life Member of Cambridge University could play for Cambridgeshire. Which meant that anyone who set foot in Cambridgeshire only to be educated, and not been anywhere near Cambridgeshire in the 30 years since they left, could still play for Cambridgeshire. And they did, until they changed the rule.

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:11 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:Surrey averaged 201 v Staffordshire in their Semi Final. Must have been pretty depressing for Staffordshire to turn up and see an International Master in the opposing team ... on board 7! They averaged 202 in the Final too.
(I see someone pointed out this one already, but I'll post it anyway)

Strongest in recent times, it looks like. Would need to go back to the days when grandmasters turned out for the finals stages to see stronger teams, I think. There was the Cambridgeshire-Kent final from the 1998-9 season, given here:

http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/9899/matchbcf.htm

Cambridgeshire had GM Mestel on board one (228), two future GMs (they were IMs at the time), and some future(?) IMs as well, all the way down to a 185 on board 16. Kent went from GM MacDonald on board one (239) with an IM and future GM at least, maybe more (not sure), all the way down to 184 on board 16 and 169 on board 16.

Cambridgeshire average = 3369/16 = 210.56
Kent average = 3214/16 = 200.88

Surely the Cambridgeshire sides of the 1970s were stronger?

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:29 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Daniel Young wrote:Cambridgeshire managed to get to 211 (!) in the 1999 final - http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/9899/matchbcf.htm#open
Yes, that was presumably in the days where anyone who was a Life Member of Cambridge University could play for Cambridgeshire. Which meant that anyone who set foot in Cambridgeshire only to be educated, and not been anywhere near Cambridgeshire in the 30 years since they left, could still play for Cambridgeshire. And they did, until they changed the rule.
Actually, looking at that list, that's not entirely true. Some may have graduated that year, but there are a fair number on that list who were students in that year. Hmm. Or maybe the previous year. Matthew (Turner) may be able to say more if he sees this. I should know as well, but can't remember. I have some vague recollection that Mestel was (and is) resident in Cambridgeshire, though he is a professor at Imperial College, though I may well be utterly wrong on the residency. When was the rule change made?

EDIT 1: Looking at the Cambridgeshire-Sussex final in 2000-1:

http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/0001/matchbcf.htm

That to me looks more like a team with several ex-university players. It would probably be difficult now to compare the 1998-9 and the 2000-1 sides in terms of who was resident in or working in Cambridgeshire at the time, and who were ex-university players, but it might be possible.

And looking here:

http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/0203/matchbcf.htm

Cambridgeshire reached the quarter-finals in the 2002-3 Open competition with Mestel on board 1. By 2005-6 Cambridgeshire were in the Minor Counties section where they have been ever since (I have a vague memory this has been covered before on this forum elsewhere).

EDIT 2: These previous threads seem the most relevant:

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 56&p=51361
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 727#p34727

And then various bits if you browse forward from the start of the second thread linked above:

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1961

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:32 pm

Another reflection on the county finals (including several pictures), with a more sombre coda:

http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.c ... stone.html

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:47 pm

I would have been 23 in the 1998/9 season, so I would have left University as would the vast majority of the Cambridge(shire) team. I seem to remember that it was the persistence of Nathan Alfred that got the alumni to turn out.
I find it slightly strange that an ECF official would take so much pleasure in changing the rules resulting in Cambridge no longer competing, it would be nice to see Counties encouraged.

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:20 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:I find it slightly strange that an ECF official would take so much pleasure in changing the rules resulting in Cambridge no longer competing, it would be nice to see Counties encouraged.
Assuming I'm the ECF official to whom you refer, I have to refute the allegation I took "so much pleasure" in the rule being changed". I expressed no opinion, and simply reported what happened.

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Re: County Championship Finals

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:36 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Matthew Turner wrote:I find it slightly strange that an ECF official would take so much pleasure in changing the rules resulting in Cambridge no longer competing, it would be nice to see Counties encouraged.
Assuming I'm the ECF official to whom you refer, I have to refute the allegation I took "so much pleasure" in the rule being changed". I expressed no opinion, and simply reported what happened.
The story (from the earlier threads) seems to be that Essex proposed a rule change after losing one of those finals (or a semi-final or something). I think.

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