The earliest practical date is March 16th for SCCU teams, as their final round is on the 15th. Many quarter final matches involve neutral venues, so even if S1, M1 and N1 are always at home for the quarter-final, that's no help until you know the opposition.Mick Norris wrote: What is the latest practical date for the draw, given that venues need to be booked?
County Championship Rules
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Re: County Championship Rules
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Re: County Championship Rules
Except it isn't.Roger de Coverly wrote:The earliest practical date is March 16th for SCCU teams, as their final round is on the 15th.
The SCCU deliberately give themselves 2 weeks before the nomination deadline, in order to make sure that they are going to nominate counties who actually want to take up nomination. The SCCU's nominations are likely to arrive about a week later if everyone replies punctually.
I think the SCCU's approach is very responsible in his regard.
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Re: County Championship Rules
If the nomination deadline is 31st March and the ECF don't know until then even how many teams there will be in each competition, then that's the point at which the draw and pairings should be announced.Alex Holowczak wrote: The SCCU deliberately give themselves 2 weeks before the nomination deadline
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Re: County Championship Rules
Again, I agree, but it is not what the Unions want.Roger de Coverly wrote:If the nomination deadline is 31st March and the ECF don't know until then even how many teams there will be in each competition, then that's the point at which the draw and pairings should be announced.Alex Holowczak wrote: The SCCU deliberately give themselves 2 weeks before the nomination deadline
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Re: County Championship Rules
As I read the rules, every Union should have reported to the ECF in December the number of nominations that they wish to make in each competition. If a Union asks for a nomination and then fails to fill that place it is liable to a fine of £100 for each unfilled nomination. The draw could therefore take place theoretically on January 1st.Roger de Coverly wrote:If the nomination deadline is 31st March and the ECF don't know until then even how many teams there will be in each competition, then that's the point at which the draw and pairings should be announced.Alex Holowczak wrote: The SCCU deliberately give themselves 2 weeks before the nomination deadline
I assume therefore that each Union will have already asked their counties whether or not they wish to compete in the national stages. For the SCCU and MCCU who have a full and comprehensive county programme this shouldn't create a problem, the WECU and EACU have a smaller county fixture list whereas the NCCU use their tried and trusted method of playing no county matches at all and nominating Yorkshire and Lancashire for everything.
So there should be no trouble in making the draw at the 4NCL weekend. I trust the £100 default fine may concentrate certain counties minds.
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Re: County Championship Rules
I think it may be more a case of the new rule having concentrated the minds of certain Unions.Neil Graham wrote:As I read the rules, every Union should have reported to the ECF in December the number of nominations that they wish to make in each competition. If a Union asks for a nomination and then fails to fill that place it is liable to a fine of £100 for each unfilled nomination. The draw could therefore take place theoretically on January 1st.
I assume therefore that each Union will have already asked their counties whether or not they wish to compete in the national stages. For the SCCU and MCCU who have a full and comprehensive county programme this shouldn't create a problem, the WECU and EACU have a smaller county fixture list whereas the NCCU use their tried and trusted method of playing no county matches at all and nominating Yorkshire and Lancashire for everything.
So there should be no trouble in making the draw at the 4NCL weekend. I trust the £100 default fine may concentrate certain counties minds.
It would appear that at least one Union has been in the habit of asking for nominations which they had no real intention of taking up, safe in the knowledge that the only consequence would be to cause inconvenience to other Unions. Such behaviour will now cost them £100 a time.
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Re: County Championship Rules
The forthcoming Yorks v Lancs matches were discussed at Buxton at breakfast this morning - I gathered dates and venues have been agreed for at least the Open and U180 matches - I know you don't like the NCCU, but they do actually play each yearNeil Graham wrote:I assume therefore that each Union will have already asked their counties whether or not they wish to compete in the national stages. For the SCCU and MCCU who have a full and comprehensive county programme this shouldn't create a problem, the WECU and EACU have a smaller county fixture list whereas the NCCU use their tried and trusted method of playing no county matches at all and nominating Yorkshire and Lancashire for everything.
Made a pleasant change from discussing the ECF/ECU/FIDE/MCF Presidency
Any postings on here represent my personal views
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Re: County Championship Rules
Possibly the £100 fine to counties who default a match may also have an effect. Last year Nottinghamshire had to play a preliminary round in the Under 180 competition and when the quarter-finals were reached one of the counties defaulted thus making the earlier match totally unnecessary. My guess is that the cost of the earlier game would be at least £300 (32 players from different parts of the country meeting at a central venue). Perhaps the defaulting county should have paid £150 to Nottinghamshire and our opponents?David Sedgwick wrote:I think it may be more a case of the new rule having concentrated the minds of certain Unions.Neil Graham wrote:As I read the rules, every Union should have reported to the ECF in December the number of nominations that they wish to make in each competition. If a Union asks for a nomination and then fails to fill that place it is liable to a fine of £100 for each unfilled nomination. The draw could therefore take place theoretically on January 1st.
I assume therefore that each Union will have already asked their counties whether or not they wish to compete in the national stages. For the SCCU and MCCU who have a full and comprehensive county programme this shouldn't create a problem, the WECU and EACU have a smaller county fixture list whereas the NCCU use their tried and trusted method of playing no county matches at all and nominating Yorkshire and Lancashire for everything.
So there should be no trouble in making the draw at the 4NCL weekend. I trust the £100 default fine may concentrate certain counties minds.
It would appear that at least one Union has been in the habit of asking for nominations which they had no real intention of taking up, safe in the knowledge that the only consequence would be to cause inconvenience to other Unions. Such behaviour will now cost them £100 a time.
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Re: County Championship Rules
Looking at the last two seasons’ results it’s not clear which Union(s) you had in mind.David Sedgwick wrote:I think it may be more a case of the new rule having concentrated the minds of certain Unions.Neil Graham wrote:As I read the rules, every Union should have reported to the ECF in December the number of nominations that they wish to make in each competition. If a Union asks for a nomination and then fails to fill that place it is liable to a fine of £100 for each unfilled nomination. The draw could therefore take place theoretically on January 1st.
I assume therefore that each Union will have already asked their counties whether or not they wish to compete in the national stages. For the SCCU and MCCU who have a full and comprehensive county programme this shouldn't create a problem, the WECU and EACU have a smaller county fixture list whereas the NCCU use their tried and trusted method of playing no county matches at all and nominating Yorkshire and Lancashire for everything.
So there should be no trouble in making the draw at the 4NCL weekend. I trust the £100 default fine may concentrate certain counties minds.
It would appear that at least one Union has been in the habit of asking for nominations which they had no real intention of taking up, safe in the knowledge that the only consequence would be to cause inconvenience to other Unions. Such behaviour will now cost them £100 a time.
A quick count indicates that EACU & NCCU each declined one nomination last year, but as for defaulted matches the culprits were evenly spread: MCCU (2), NCCU (1), EACU (1), SCCU (1). Only the WECU fulfilled its obligations.
The season before the SCCU declined one nomination. Defaulted matches were attributed to EACU (1), SCCU (3), NCCU (2) and MCCU (1). Again, the WECU had a clean record.
Source: http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/1213/matchbcf.htm & http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/1112/matchbcf.htm
So, apart from in the west of England the problem appears to be widespread.
Rules are rules and I have no problem abiding by them, but perhaps the real issue here is the gradual decline of County chess. Some smaller counties are not awash with players - getting 16 (or 12) willing souls to play during the regular chess season can be testing enough; but a different matter completely during the summer months when other attractions are on offer. Maybe some counties entered with the best of intentions, but when it came to the actual match, possibly weeks later, the captains found that half their regulars were not available.
I wonder whether the threat of financial penalties is really the best way to encourage teams to participate.
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Re: County Championship Rules
That's unfair. I have no like/dislike of any particular Union. What I do have is a strong opinion about Union representation into the Counties Championship. To date (according to the ECF website), the SCCU have played 38 county matches, the MCCU 35, the EACU 22, the WECU 8 and the NCCU nil. It is wrong that counties should be given "free passes" into the competition. I would suggest a system possibly as follows :-Mick Norris wrote:The forthcoming Yorks v Lancs matches were discussed at Buxton at breakfast this morning - I gathered dates and venues have been agreed for at least the Open and U180 matches - I know you don't like the NCCU, but they do actually play each yearNeil Graham wrote:I assume therefore that each Union will have already asked their counties whether or not they wish to compete in the national stages. For the SCCU and MCCU who have a full and comprehensive county programme this shouldn't create a problem, the WECU and EACU have a smaller county fixture list whereas the NCCU use their tried and trusted method of playing no county matches at all and nominating Yorkshire and Lancashire for everything.
Made a pleasant change from discussing the ECF/ECU/FIDE/MCF Presidency
1-3 entries at the Union stage entitles the Union to one place in the national stages
4-6 entries at the Union stage entitles the Union to two places in the national stages
7 and above entitles a Union to three places in the national stages
if this provides less than 8 competitors in any competition extra places to be offered to the Unions with most entrants. Alternatively offer places in the national stages on a 50% basis eg 1-2 entrants = 1 place; 3-4 = 2 places; 5-6 = 3 places etc.
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Re: County Championship Rules
So do I, especially when they're set at £100.Kevin Williamson wrote:I wonder whether the threat of financial penalties is really the best way to encourage teams to participate.
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Re: County Championship Rules
According to this website: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bill ... -1900.htmlAngus French wrote:So do I, especially when they're set at £100.Kevin Williamson wrote:I wonder whether the threat of financial penalties is really the best way to encourage teams to participate.
£100 today was worth £50 in 1989/90.
I don't know when the rule was brought in, but I'm told it's an old rule. David Sedgwick will probably know if the rule was introduced pre or post-1990.
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Re: County Championship Rules
You're welcome to be annoyed about the theoretical logic of the NCCU 'qualifying' stages. Until relatively recently there was only one of Lancashire/Yorkshire going through, which helped the matches to mean more. Of course they don't need that much help to mean something
But there were defaults at the national stages etc, and I've always presumed it was simple pragmatism to let both counties qualify. After all, there really aren't very many counties who can field potentially title winning Open/U180 teams anymore. Lancs/Yorks both can.
I'm curious - when is the U180 match scheduled?
But there were defaults at the national stages etc, and I've always presumed it was simple pragmatism to let both counties qualify. After all, there really aren't very many counties who can field potentially title winning Open/U180 teams anymore. Lancs/Yorks both can.
I'm curious - when is the U180 match scheduled?
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Re: County Championship Rules
The SCCU did not decline a nomination in 2012. An SCCU county did, but the place was taken up by another SCCU county.Kevin Williamson wrote: Looking at the last two seasons’ results it’s not clear which Union(s) you had in mind.
A quick count indicates that EACU & NCCU each declined one nomination last year, but as for defaulted matches the culprits were evenly spread: MCCU (2), NCCU (1), EACU (1), SCCU (1). Only the WECU fulfilled its obligations.
The season before the SCCU declined one nomination. Defaulted matches were attributed to EACU (1), SCCU (3), NCCU (2) and MCCU (1). Again, the WECU had a clean record.
The SCCU was extremely concerned about the three defaults in that year and took steps to avoid a repetition in 2013. We had some success, but my own county let us down, much to my chagrin.
The £100 penalty is not designed to encourage teams to participate. It's designed to discourage counties and Unions from saying they intend to participate when they lack the resources to do so, with the consequences set out by Neil Graham above.Angus French wrote:So do I, especially when they're set at £100.Kevin Williamson wrote:I wonder whether the threat of financial penalties is really the best way to encourage teams to participate.
I can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure that the £50 penalty for a match default was in force, and enforced, when I was SCCU President from 1993-95.Alex Holowczak wrote:£100 today was worth £50 in 1989/90.
I don't know when the rule was brought in, but I'm told it's an old rule. David Sedgwick will probably know if the rule was introduced pre or post-1990.
For some reason ECF County Match Controllers subsequently stopped applying the penalty until recently.
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Re: County Championship Rules
2nd March at Bradford Latvian ClubMartinCarpenter wrote: I'm curious - when is the U180 match scheduled?