2014 Final stages

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Andrew Zigmond
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:26 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Union competitions can still run to determine regional champions, but the ECF County Championships would then be a stand alone event.
To an extent it already is - while in practice the Unions use their internal competitions to decide how they allocate their nominations, they are not under any obligation to do so. Nor indeed are they obliged to nominate them in any specific order. This is the reason the draw is not announced until all nominations are in (ie so that no union can tactically alter their nominations).

Sean's idea to eliminate the union stage altogether is an interesting one - as with everything else it boils down to it being proposed and passed at council.
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Sean Hewitt
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:37 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:To an extent it already is - while in practice the Unions use their internal competitions to decide how they allocate their nominations, they are not under any obligation to do so.
The point is that the number of nominations open to a Union is limited. My suggestion would remove that restriction. If 5 SCCU counties wanted to play in the Open they could do so under my proposal whilst they could not do so currently.
Andrew Zigmond wrote:Sean's idea to eliminate the union stage altogether is an interesting one - as with everything else it boils down to it being proposed and passed at council.
I'm not sure that a Council proposal would be required for this. That said, the key question (for me) is what Counties and players think!

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:09 pm

A full 8 in principle - Chesire and North Wales, Cleveland, Cumbria, Durham, Merseyside and Northumberland. But yes, fundamentally not really enough population for anyone to fight Yorkshire/Lancs on anything like an equal footing.

Maybe if you rolled the NWish or NE 'bundles' together, but the travel is a huge obstacle for them too. From the old NCCU website - Open winners since 2001 has roughly Northumberland x 5, Cheshire 10, Yorks/Lancs about 50 each.

Much saner to have NE/Liverpool etc based teams in the 4NCL, and by and large they're doing that quite nicely this year :)

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:13 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:To an extent it already is - while in practice the Unions use their internal competitions to decide how they allocate their nominations, they are not under any obligation to do so.
The point is that the number of nominations open to a Union is limited. My suggestion would remove that restriction. If 5 SCCU counties wanted to play in the Open they could do so under my proposal whilst they could not do so currently.
Andrew Zigmond wrote:Sean's idea to eliminate the union stage altogether is an interesting one - as with everything else it boils down to it being proposed and passed at council.
I'm not sure that a Council proposal would be required for this. That said, the key question (for me) is what Counties and players think!
The first point would be relatively easily changed simply by amending Rule B.3 to remove the upper limit of three nominations.

I don't think it needs a Council proposal as such but obviously such a radical change would need a mandate. As you say it is what Counties and players want that matters and is probably one for Alex rather than myself.
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MartinCarpenter
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:20 pm

While we're into radical thoughts, is there any reason we shouldn't scrap the (really rather moribund) U180 competition and let the big counties enter second teams into the minor counties instead?

It'd certainly be somewhat easier for Yorkshire to field an average U180 team than a pure U180 one. Quite a few fairly keen 190-180 players not making the open team, including several of our better organisers :) Imagine the situation is similar for the southern counties at least.

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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:52 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:While we're into radical thoughts, is there any reason we shouldn't scrap the (really rather moribund) U180 competition and let the big counties enter second teams into the minor counties instead?

It'd certainly be somewhat easier for Yorkshire to field an average U180 team than a pure U180 one. Quite a few fairly keen 190-180 players not making the open team, including several of our better organisers :) Imagine the situation is similar for the southern counties at least.
Oddly enough, I mentioned earlier today that there would be no reason that a county couldn't enter the Open and the Minor counties if they wished.

Great minds think alive / fools seldom differ. :D

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Joey Stewart
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Joey Stewart » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:06 pm

Make the under 180 section into the minor counties competition then, it would neuter the stronger performers and make good competitive matches.

I remember playing the under 180s a few years back and felt that it was the most balanced competition I have ever been involved in.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:21 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:Make the under 180 section into the minor counties competition then, it would neuter the stronger performers and make good competitive matches.
That would be bad news for counties with a small pool of players, as it's the larger counties who can most easily field 16 players with grades between 170 and 179. With an average under 180, you can attempt to persuade a local GM or IM or two to turn out. There's a serious overlap in players though, at least one county has declined to attempt to simultaneously field an under 180 team and a Minor Counties team.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:40 am

The U180's (and U175 before it) are excellent competitions in themselves but down to 6 nominations for the knock outs this year and clustered too - 2 NCCU and 2 SCCU.

The U180's/minor counties overlap must be nearly total really - the U180's is players from roughly 179-165 while the minor counties is average <180. It'd be easy to convert something like an SCCU/NCCU U180 team to a minor counties one, you'd just bring in a few players from 190-180 at the top. Probably you'd actually pretty well end up with the old U175 teams!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:49 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:It'd be easy to convert something like an SCCU/NCCU U180 team to a minor counties one, you'd just bring in a few players from 190-180 at the top. Probably you'd actually pretty well end up with the old U175 teams!
In the SCCU competition the under 180 teams can have an overlap with Open teams depending on how successful the Open captain is in getting over 180 players to turn out. The matches are held at different weekends and some overlapping players do so in order to play more weekend chess without having to play 4NCL or Congresses. At national stages, the matches are usually all held on the same dates, which can cause problems if you need 32 players to supply two full teams. This might particularly be a problem with Minor/U180 if you needed under 180 players to dilute the strength of your strongest possible team.

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Matthew Carr
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Matthew Carr » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:29 pm

Good day everyone

The counties finals will have live boards. The ECF has set up a page for them and the link to it is:

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/counties ... live-2014/

Hope everyone enjoys the games tomorrow. Also please spread the word of this :)

Mick Norris
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:50 pm

U100 - Kent 7.5-4.5 Warks
EDIT - the SCCU site is giving this as 8.5 - 3.5
http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/matchbcf.htm
U120 - Notts 7-5 Herts
U140 - Hants 9-7 Notts
U160 - Yorks 10-6 Middlesex
U180 - Warks 9.5-6.5 Essex
Minor - Suffolk 9.5-6.5 Notts
Open - Yorks 11.5-4.5 Middlesex

Detailed results here:
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/county-c ... -20132014/

NCCU - 2, MCCU - 2, SCCU - 1, EACU - 1, WECU - 1 I think
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Dragoljub Sudar
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by Dragoljub Sudar » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:20 pm

What detailed results?

I cannot access them as when I click on the scores nothing happens (I can access the other rounds ok).

David Pardoe
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by David Pardoe » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:45 pm

Just click on the match result to get a breakdown of the rounds, then click on the Final score to get the details for that particular Final match....repeat for other Final matches.

Looks like it was a great Finals weekend, so I`d just say well done to all the teams who reached the Finals.
Quite interesting following some of the Open games yesterday, so well done to the technical boys for making that possible.
Hopefully, some of the stories behind these battles will find there way into the major regional Press...not least The Yorkshire Post, to celebrate there local success(es)...
BRING BACK THE BCF

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: 2014 Final stages

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:55 pm

David Pardoe wrote:Just click on the match result to get a breakdown of the rounds, then click on the Final score to get the details for that particular Final match....repeat for other Final matches.
The point, you have once again missed it. It's not that we don't know how to access the scores, it's that they are not yet up there to access.

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