2016 draw

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Mick Norris
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:18 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:Abolishing or regionalising qualifying is the way forward, but the SCCU don't appear to be prepared to counternance that.
It would be possible for the SCCU to be outvoted if everyone else agreed, of course, but regional qualifying where the SCCU was 1 of the regions is a viable alternative

I'm not quite sure that Council is the right place (albeit currently the only one) for proposals, as meetings go on too long to have a meaningful discussion about changes, as as Alex, you can unite everyone against a proposal, but not in favour of a specific change

I'd support OCOV in this context (one county one vote)
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Kevin Williamson
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Kevin Williamson » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:37 pm

In the under 100 Essex beat Notts 7-5 at Milton Keynes today. An enjoyable match to watch.

Until earlier in the week we had been expecting to host the Staffs-Middx Open match as well, but we know what happened there. On the positive side Graham Borrowdale and I got away in time for the 5pm Euro 16 kick off.

Neil Graham
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Neil Graham » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:52 pm

Kevin Williamson wrote:In the under 100 Essex beat Notts 7-5 at Milton Keynes today. An enjoyable match to watch.

Until earlier in the week we had been expecting to host the Staffs-Middx Open match as well, but we know what happened there. On the positive side Graham Borrowdale and I got away in time for the 5pm Euro 16 kick off.
Not a good day for Notts - our U140 team, finalists for the last two years, lost 10-6 to Worcestershire despite outgrading the opposition by an average of seven points on every board. :shock: :oops:

Only good news - a win for Notts U120 by 7.5-4.5 in the U120 against Norfolk.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:35 pm

Richard Bates wrote:Another option might be to change the Minor Counties into a "plate" competition, perhaps to be contested by the 4 losing quarter finalists in the Open. Whether you apply the average grading restriction to the plate would be a matter of discussion.
If the Open and Minor Counties were combined overnight you would have fifteen teams; 5 for the SCCU, 4 from the MCCU, 3 from the EACU and two each from the NCCU & WECU. The idea of having a `plate` for the Minor counties consisting of first round losers did occur to me - this would consist of seven losing teams with one team having a bye.

The main problem is that the key requirement for the draw committee is that first nominees of unions are kept apart until the final (unless this was changed of course). I may try to work out how this would look in practice when I have more time. The point is that it might be hard to completely avoid two of the traditional Open teams meeting in the first round.
Controller - Yorkshire League
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All views expressed entirely my own

Richard Bates
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Richard Bates » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:51 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Richard Bates wrote:Another option might be to change the Minor Counties into a "plate" competition, perhaps to be contested by the 4 losing quarter finalists in the Open. Whether you apply the average grading restriction to the plate would be a matter of discussion.
If the Open and Minor Counties were combined overnight you would have fifteen teams; 5 for the SCCU, 4 from the MCCU, 3 from the EACU and two each from the NCCU & WECU. The idea of having a `plate` for the Minor counties consisting of first round losers did occur to me - this would consist of seven losing teams with one team having a bye.

The main problem is that the key requirement for the draw committee is that first nominees of unions are kept apart until the final (unless this was changed of course). I may try to work out how this would look in practice when I have more time. The point is that it might be hard to completely avoid two of the traditional Open teams meeting in the first round.
I don't like the idea of the theoretical "plate" being for first round losers. The whole point of the idea is that the "minor" teams should be challenged to try and get the strongest teams they can. A few might surprise themselves how strong/competitive they could be. And so to do that they must have to win at least one match to get into the plate/minor competition. Otherwise they are just playing one game to lose - they may even not even have to play that game, they might just default to get into the competition that they want.

OK so the effect might be that a team outperforming their expectation might paradoxically sacrifice their chances of "glory" at the finals day. But I would hope that most minor counties would value a run to the semi finals over victory in the Minor competition. You would still apply the grading restriction in the plate/minor competition itself, just in case one of the big teams has an accident and makes it into that competition.

You would still have to decide what to do if a team 'qualifying' for the Minor then decided they weren't interested in taking up the option - maybe then you could look to the first round losers on some basis.

Possibly the whole idea doesn't really fit together. But I just find it a bit depressing that you have a currently "thriving" competition that is based in part on counties deciding to opt out of trying to be as strong as they can be.

Nick Grey
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:36 pm

U160s Surrey lost 6-10 to Middlesex. A few players caught in torrential rain but got warmed up with tea/coffee cake & biscuits & some chess.
Well deserved win for Middlesex & best wishes for the final.

Waiting on hearing about the Open Surrey v Yorkshire.

Tomorrow U180/U140 double header Lancs v Surrey

Andrew Bak
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Andrew Bak » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:59 pm

Yorkshire 9-7 Surrey

Sean Hewitt
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:18 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:If the Open and Minor Counties were combined overnight you would have fifteen teams
I don't think that's true if, by 'combining', you actually mean forcing minor counties to play in the open. A number of counties simply wouldn't play.

Neil Graham
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Neil Graham » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:19 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:If the Open and Minor Counties were combined overnight you would have fifteen teams
I don't think that's true if, by 'combining', you actually mean forcing minor counties to play in the open. A number of counties simply wouldn't play.
Can I endorse everything Sean has said in this and his previous post. The Minor Counties is a closely contested competition whose parameters are very clear. Nottinghamshire is able to compete on a reasonable footing with other teams in this competition.

Notts has no players in the county graded over 190 who wish to play Counties Championship chess. Today the winning Yorkshire team, to take an example, fielded 11 players graded 190+ including nine graded over 200. The Notts Minor Counties team in the quarter final averaged 175 and that was the strongest side we could field. Why on earth would we wish to play against Yorkshire, average grade 199? The result would be a foregone conclusion.

David Pardoe
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by David Pardoe » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:22 pm

Firstly, there are a whole host of issues to contend with, not least travel and transport in the Finals stages. These should not be over stated, as there is a wealth of good chessing awaiting those prepared to commit to the cause..
As has been said, a vital point is finding volunteers to captain our county teams.
I honestly think that a big problem is the apathy factor.. i.e., players who just want it all sorting ...and they will then just turn up and play.
Volunteers wanted... much help available.

The main problems seem to be at the top end, which is not surprising, since the number of available players tends to diminish in the upper reaches..
And we need to do more to encourage a fresh generation of players, not least from our junior community. But, come May & June they have exams to contend with..
Yes, look at the suggested ways of restructuring the upper tiers. i.e., Open, Minor and U180 events.
But the most vital task I think is to engender a greater sense of inclusivity into these events.. i.e., we have large swathes of the country where little or no county chess is played...this really is not good. We must reawaken enthusiasm for these county events, and extol there virtues.

Clashes with other events, like 4NCL and Congress/Rapidplay events is an on-going problem.
Some suggest we should just play friendly matches against neighbouring counties of choice.

Here`s another option...
Rebrand our Counties Finals competitions to Regional Finals events.
Lets take the NCCU for example..
Huge areas play almost no county chess..Durham, Northumberland and Teesside, Humberside., Merseyside, Cheshire & North Wales, and Cumbria.

Maybe the NCCU should organise Regional competitions.. i.e., by combining Northumberland Durham & Teesside into say one NE Regional team group, and combining say Cheshire, Merseyside & N Wales into another, and Cumbria with Lancs, you could create 4 good quality playing regional team groups. These should then have sufficient numbers to enable teams to be fielded at several levels BY EACH REGION. Maybe these might operate at just the higher levels, i.e. Open, Minor and U180... or maybe go further down the order to U160, and U140. etc.
The point being that with these 4 regional groups you could probably run an `all play all` at the various grade bands, creating a 3 match Qualifier event. By selecting suitable venues the travel for each team could be eased.
Of course a key requirement is for the respective Union bodies to set up and run good county/regional competitions, and for respective counties to do there bit to support these initiatives.
Then, at the National stages, with a revised National Regions Competition, maybe the Eastern counties & Western counties could send a `Combined counties teams for the Open, Minor or U180 competitions. By doing this, it might just be possible to restore some real `inclusivity` back into these events, and see regions that have not got involved for years might return to the table. Reverting back to the previous grading bands might also help..
As I`ve said, the counties chess scene really does provide some of our best chess playing opportunities, for those who can spare a few Saturday afternoons to play these 16 board matches.
It might even provide an opportunity for the NCCU to ditch its historical legacies and rebrand to say the NRCA . With a new proactive Executive at the helm... who knows what might be achieved. But its for others to decide those matters..
Talk of scrapping the Qualifier stages is a definite no no.. Why, because it provides teams with a reasonable group of matches that probably does not involve too many major travel issues.
As I`ve said, the Counties format provides the opportunity to gain quality team match experience...on all levels. This should help to produce our top grade players for future years, as they rise through the ranks.
BRING BACK THE BCF

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:41 pm

Obviously I was just making conversation above and I recognise the views expressed by Neil and Sean above. The question arose when we were discussing the current state of the Open where there are currently only four competitive teams and three of them are in the South.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Mike Truran
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Mike Truran » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:47 pm

David

I've suggested it before, and I'll suggest it again - instead of posting (at some length) on this forum, why don't you step up to the plate yourself?

Living off past volunteering glories (whatever they may be) doesn't really help our current volunteer deficit.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:50 pm

Richard Bates wrote:A few might surprise themselves how strong/competitive they could be.

[...]

Possibly the whole idea doesn't really fit together. But I just find it a bit depressing that you have a currently "thriving" competition that is based in part on counties deciding to opt out of trying to be as strong as they can be.
How many counties do you think are opting out of trying to be as strong as they can be?

My estimate is that of the MCCU counties, 0 counties fall into this category.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:32 pm

GM could be very strong, or more realistically (with 3C's naturally very club/4NCL focused), at least a perfectly competitive one. NCCU nonsense a major barrier :(

I guess a better question is perhaps, what (if anything) would motivate more teams to enter the Open?

12 board matches would I think work quite well to let Lancashire compete strongly if organised. No idea if any others.

If the answer is 'nothing', think might have to look at cutting it down to just semi/final only but restricting qualifiers a bit. Repeating SCCU qualifiers in the K/O's isn't that attractive - certainly not all the Surrey players today were precisely devastated they didn't have to cart off to Leamington to play Middlesex!

Yorkshire's quest for 3 in a row is rather taking after our cricketers - much less dominating than last season but still just about in there :)

Mick Norris
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Re: 2016 draw

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:35 pm

Neil Graham wrote:Only good news - a win for Notts U120 by 7.5-4.5 in the U120 against Norfolk.
An MCCU champion then, as Warks beat Herts by the same score
Any postings on here represent my personal views