County duel brand

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Nick Grey
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: County duel brand

Post by Nick Grey » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:25 pm

Thanks - I'll speak to David Sedgwick at some time. Not been too well & taking 6 months off playing & trying not to worry too much about the politics.

Also get in some practice on the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique instead of a handshake/headbutt & remember to take shinpads for specific matches in the New Year.

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 2116
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: County duel brand

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:35 am

"Also get in some practice on the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique instead of a handshake/headbutt & remember to take shinpads for specific matches in the New Year."

Yes, the Surrey league reawakened my interest in martial arts.

John Reyes
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: County duel brand

Post by John Reyes » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:32 pm

Well Urmston chess club put a proposel in the Lancashire AGM and got shot down to an 4/13 vote

Any ideas would be a help
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2331
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: County duel brand

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:52 pm

Probably wait for the county competition to die entirely in the North, meanwhile happily playing in the 4NCL 3N :)
(in a jointly funded team for pities sake!)

That or somehow organise enough sane people to stamp down the vote against, but it sounds rather entrenched for that.

John Reyes
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: County duel brand

Post by John Reyes » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:32 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Probably wait for the county competition to die entirely in the North, meanwhile happily playing in the 4NCL 3N :)
(in a jointly funded team for pities sake!)

That or somehow organise enough sane people to stamp down the vote against, but it sounds rather entrenched for that.

Maybe it is time to end the county championship?

At the Lancashire AGM, I heard how all the county teams
Got to the national championship! Wonder why?
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8014
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: County duel brand

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:13 am

John Reyes wrote:At the Lancashire AGM, I heard how all the county teams
Got to the national championship! Wonder why?
The rules provide for 2 teams from each Union qualifying for the National Stage. In Unions except for the NCCU, this means there is a keenly contested qualifying stage to get into the top 2 (or 3, in some cases).

In the NCCU, given Yorkshire and Lancashire are typically the only entries, they qualify by default if they enter.

To some extent, the problem you're experiencing is NCCU-wide, and not England-wide.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: County duel brand

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:54 am

Alex, do you regard it as acceptable that the National Counties Championship is so structured that two particular counties are guaranteed a place in the National Stages every year while other counties have to compete for a place?

David Sedgwick
Posts: 2826
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: County duel brand

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:46 am

Michael Farthing wrote:Alex, do you regard it as acceptable that the National Counties Championship is so structured that two particular counties are guaranteed a place in the National Stages every year while other counties have to compete for a place?
I'll be interested to see Alex's reply, but in the meantime I'd like to give my take on this.

The present arrangements stem from a rule change made (from memory) in 2008.

For some years prior to that, you were only allowed one place if your Union Qualifying Stage had fewer than three teams. This had the effect of excluding one or other of Lancashire and Yorkshire from the National Stages of each Division, as the other NCCU counties had ceased to enter.

As both counties would almost certainly be amongst the best eight teams in all Divisions, the general consensus was that this was unfair on them. The solution adopted was to increase a Union's automatic entitlement to two. (The observant will note that a possible alternative solution would have been for the NCCU to admit Greater Manchester, but I'll leave that aside.)

As a quid pro quo, the number of Qualifying Stage teams which entitled a Union to three places was reduced from seven to five. The SCCU, with six active counties, has benefitted considerably from this.

I have a prejudicial interest (see the preceding paragraph) but on the whole I think that the 2008 changes have led to a more active and vibrant National Stages.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: County duel brand

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:46 am

An interesting contribution from David.

Perhaps I should add that on reviewing my last post I feel it reads rather like a John Humphrey's Today question intended to box Alex into a tight corner where any reply can be pounced on and turned into a headline grabbing condemnation. Let me state categorically that that was not my aim. It was more an interest to know whether those outside the NCCU feel that Lancs and Yorks have been given a priveleged position. It would seem that David, at least, is of the view that the arrangement is a pragmatic solution to a genuine problem.

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: County duel brand

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:06 pm

Firstly if Carl and Jack are reading this, is there any chance the thread about County Chess vs 4NCL in ECF matters could be merged with this one?

Having been controller for three years now it is clear that passions around inter county chess are very high and, at the highest level, some very strong teams compete for the national title. I might be opening a can of worms with this one but sometimes I feel there is a conservatism with regard to the competition which make it hard to bring about change where needed, perhaps not helped by the fact that changes need to be agreed at Council which is a) not always the most representative body from a county chess point of view and b) often sees County Championships proposals forced to the end of the agenda and guillotined.

As regards NCCU participation there are reasons why it has declined badly in recent years. It's probably fair to say that one factor is that the ECF (or BCF as was) became rather South centred during its years of inertia. However the decline in Northern county chess needs to be seen in the context of a booming Congress scene (and in Yorkshire a very busy Saturday league problem). Writing purely as a player here; I'm personally hamstrung by a job that involves weekend work but when I do have a weekend free I can easily find a congress if it isn't a Yorkshire league Saturday. It doesn't seem necessary to organise my diary in order to travel to Syston for the sake of one game.

I'm going to lay down the gauntlet here. The NCCU are very quick to criticize the failings of other individuals and organisations but seem oblivious to their own faults. It is perhaps telling that the three most capable individuals in the North (Lara Barnes, Alex McFarlane, David Robertson) have nothing to do with the NCCU or County Chess.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2331
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: County duel brand

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:31 pm

David Sedgwick wrote: I have a prejudicial interest (see the preceding paragraph) but on the whole I think that the 2008 changes have led to a more active and vibrant National Stages.
This is the thing - last season both the U180 and the Open were comfortably below 8 teams in the K/O's even with both NCCU teams eligible.

Honestly, the whole idea of qualifying teams has broken down in those competitions. Andrews' ideas last season(?) - let any team who wants play in the K/O section - were incredibly sane. The logical alternative would be to go the other way and cut the countrywide qualifiers down to 4 slots.
(running any quarter finals needed on a semi regional basis or something.).

Suspect either way would improve on the current (slightly daft) status quo but like Andrew says, getting people to change this sort of thing seems to be very hard.

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: County duel brand

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:46 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Andrews' ideas last season(?) - let any team who wants play in the K/O section - were incredibly sane. The logical alternative would be to go the other way and cut the countrywide qualifiers down to 4 slots.
(running any quarter finals needed on a semi regional basis or something.).
If memory serves the idea of allowing direct entry to the national stages was Alex's rather than mine.

As I have noted a few times; Counties do NOT qualify for the national stages but are instead nominated by the county unions. It's a relatively fine distinction, particularly in practice, but the distinction is important. The Unions are not obliged to nominate in any specific order (and only the WECU have a Union level rule compelling them to do so) and in theory the SCCU could nominate Cumbria if they wanted to.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Richard Bates
Posts: 2545
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: County duel brand

Post by Richard Bates » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:00 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote: I have a prejudicial interest (see the preceding paragraph) but on the whole I think that the 2008 changes have led to a more active and vibrant National Stages.
This is the thing - last season both the U180 and the Open were comfortably below 8 teams in the K/O's even with both NCCU teams eligible.

Honestly, the whole idea of qualifying teams has broken down in those competitions. Andrews' ideas last season(?) - let any team who wants play in the K/O section - were incredibly sane. The logical alternative would be to go the other way and cut the countrywide qualifiers down to 4 slots.
(running any quarter finals needed on a semi regional basis or something.).

Suspect either way would improve on the current (slightly daft) status quo but like Andrew says, getting people to change this sort of thing seems to be very hard.
I think the SCCU would probably take the view that the "qualification" element enhances their own competition by ensuring that teams are motivated to seek to put out competitive teams throughout the duration of the competition.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: County duel brand

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:06 pm

Well Andrew, perhaps the whole thing can be solved by Yorkshire applying to joint the MCCU and resigning from the NCCU? Manchester might then simply stay where it is and everyone will be :-)

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: County duel brand

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:01 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:Well Andrew, perhaps the whole thing can be solved by Yorkshire applying to joint the MCCU and resigning from the NCCU? Manchester might then simply stay where it is and everyone will be :-)
Yorkshire hat on for this one and all views my own.

I suspect your tongue was slightly in cheek but the idea is not without its merits. The MCCU probably wouldn't want Yorkshire and I know Greater Manchester find it a pain having to play every match away.

BUT the MCCU counties mainly focus on the Minor Counties and I think a Yorkshire team using the Minor county average restriction could enjoy some terrific matches against Nottinghamshire or Leicestershire.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Post Reply