County Championship Consultation

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Alan Walton
Posts: 1210
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Oldham

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:24 am
Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:14 am
Personally I would scrap the minor counties and U180, and have one Championship section with a couple of Plate competitions which replace the Minor and U180
So at a stroke you are taking the 160-180 group of players in the big counties out of county chess. Why? I did read the grudging concession about maybe allowing a couple of second teams, but that won't do.
I agree this might be the case; but looking at last season the ECF stages U180 had eight counties with half of them playing in the higher sections as well

I also suspect that the teams in the minor counties & open already have a high proportion of the 160-180s playing in those team

So I think the impact isn't as bad as people make it out to be

Also this will only be for the ECF stages; there is no barrier for the unions to continue there own U180 sections if desired

EDIT : Also looking at the QF of the Minor counties all teams had at least 50% players in their teams graded U180, and most had U160 to keep their average down, so these teams could actually play more 160-180 players without having to worry about the average rating condition

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16818
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:10 am

Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:14 am
Still only need 3 weekends for this competition so again no different to the current ECF stages
In terms of competing for available weekends with summer Congresses, then no different. Are you not proposing though that weekends 2 and 3 will have matches on both the Saturday and Sunday? For teams with a longer distance to travel, that's going to involve an overnight stay making it a sort of summer 4NCL.

Alan Walton
Posts: 1210
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Oldham

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:21 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:10 am
Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:14 am
Still only need 3 weekends for this competition so again no different to the current ECF stages
In terms of competing for available weekends with summer Congresses, then no different. Are you not proposing though that weekends 2 and 3 will have matches on both the Saturday and Sunday? For teams with a longer distance to travel, that's going to involve an overnight stay making it a sort of summer 4NCL.
I am indeed Roger; it might make the event a bit more tolerable to team commuting longer distances, I also suspect the high majority of players will also compete in 4NCL anyway so the atmosphere will be similar

Currently the ECF stages take up three weekends anyway so really no fundamental change; it looks like a simple way to refresh the current competition

NickFaulks
Posts: 4159
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:44 am

Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 am
So I think the impact isn't as bad as people make it out to be
Easy for you to say when you are not one of those who will find themselves banished from county chess at the national level.
Also this will only be for the ECF stages; there is no barrier for the unions to continue there own U180 sections if desired
That's uncommonly kind of you, and will I'm sure be appreciated.

Alan Walton
Posts: 1210
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Oldham

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:58 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:44 am
Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 am
So I think the impact isn't as bad as people make it out to be
Easy for you to say when you are not one of those who will find themselves banished from county chess at the national level.
Also this will only be for the ECF stages; there is no barrier for the unions to continue there own U180 sections if desired
That's uncommonly kind of you, and will I'm sure be appreciated.
Have you checked the scorecards from last years Minor Counties the vast majority of players were graded U180, I would say nearly 70% with half of these players are U160 to keep the average down; so by removing the average element might actually allow these to play more 160-180s

Also in the U180, four of these counties didn't enter the national stages of the Open & Minor, so these will not be impacted as they can still enter the new competition with the same players; the other four were teams who also had one in the Open, so having a second team option will cover this issue off

This is me just coming up with ideas to reinvigorate the championship as a whole, like Alex H has been trying to do

NickFaulks
Posts: 4159
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:11 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:58 am
Have you checked the scorecards from last years Minor Counties
No, because I know very little about the Minor Counties and was not writing about that.
This is me just coming up with ideas to reinvigorate the championship as a whole, like Alex H has been trying to do
Just so long as it is remembered that one player's reinvigoration can be another's expulsion.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8287
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:58 am
This is me just coming up with ideas to reinvigorate the championship as a whole, like Alex H has been trying to do
In the MCCU, counties don't enter the Under 180 at the start of the season. If any counties want nomination to the Under 180, they are invited to do so in January. Warwickshire entered the ECF Under 180 stage once the 1st team failed to qualify for the Minor. It really is a case of either the Minor or the Under 180 in the MCCU at the moment, and not both.

Actually, I think the idea of the Minor is the right one, in that it uses an average grade. I think that of the two initial options I presented as alternatives, the average makes sense. I think there are players who want to play county chess, but due to the hard section limits, they cannot because they are graded too high. This happened with me when my grade went above 139, and suddenly I was too weak for the Open team, but ineligible for the Under 140 team. The average approach would have increased participation because it would have meant that there was always a section a county could enter a team into for the pool of players that were available for selection; and indeed players who wanted to play regularly could play in a multitude of sections if they really wanted to.

But the responses said that a hard limit was preferred to an average, for various reasons. I don't agree, but that's the option that people seem to want.

Alan Walton
Posts: 1210
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Oldham

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:44 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:36 pm
Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:58 am
This is me just coming up with ideas to reinvigorate the championship as a whole, like Alex H has been trying to do
In the MCCU, counties don't enter the Under 180 at the start of the season. If any counties want nomination to the Under 180, they are invited to do so in January. Warwickshire entered the ECF Under 180 stage once the 1st team failed to qualify for the Minor. It really is a case of either the Minor or the Under 180 in the MCCU at the moment, and not both.

Actually, I think the idea of the Minor is the right one, in that it uses an average grade. I think that of the two initial options I presented as alternatives, the average makes sense. I think there are players who want to play county chess, but due to the hard section limits, they cannot because they are graded too high. This happened with me when my grade went above 139, and suddenly I was too weak for the Open team, but ineligible for the Under 140 team. The average approach would have increased participation because it would have meant that there was always a section a county could enter a team into for the pool of players that were available for selection; and indeed players who wanted to play regularly could play in a multitude of sections if they really wanted to.

But the responses said that a hard limit was preferred to an average, for various reasons. I don't agree, but that's the option that people seem to want.
From your consultation what was the reasoning why counties are more likely to enter the Minor counties; is it either they are doing it due to having an average grade condition or they just don't want to play the top teams; if it is the latter which I think it is, and I think it is more likely people won't admit to this, then the competition does need some change; every year it is the same five teams competiting in the Open eventually this becomes stale and it will just dwindle away

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8287
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:34 pm

There were two reasons really. In the Midlands, it was to do with the fear of getting mushed in the Open. Not an unreasonable fear based on past performance.

In WECU, EACU and the MCCU, the strongest team they can put out is eligible to play in the Minor. So why not enter it? That's what people do in congresses and no one holds that against them. The Under 180 divison would exclude certain players from their 1st team, but none of those three Unions run an Under 180 competition.

My sense is that there are two competitions worth of teams and players, but three competitions.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 1859
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Fleet, Hampshire

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:56 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:34 pm
In WECU, EACU and the MCCU, the strongest team they can put out is eligible to play in the Minor.
I'd be amazed if this claim was true for more than a very small number counties. You only need to look in the grading database for players who are listed as playing for their county chess associations to see it's not true for the larger counties, and that's before taking account of eligible players who haven't played for their county recently, which would probably show it's not true for most of the smaller counties either.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8287
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:27 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:56 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:34 pm
In WECU, EACU and the MCCU, the strongest team they can put out is eligible to play in the Minor.
I'd be amazed if this claim was true for more than a very small number counties. You only need to look in the grading database for players who are listed as playing for their county chess associations to see it's not true for the larger counties, and that's before taking account of eligible players who haven't played for their county recently, which would probably show it's not true for most of the smaller counties either.
When I said "strongest team they can put out", I meant the strongest team of players available to play who want to. That's certainly true in Warwickshire, which I think is the most populous county in the MCCU.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1571
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:18 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:27 pm
When I said "strongest team they can put out", I meant the strongest team of players available to play who want to.
Quite
I learnt that as a school chess captain aged 16.
"Too much homework"
"Can't play away" [That one's not changed]
"Rugby practice that night"
"Got a date"
"Nah, don't feel like it"
Looking at a grading list of eligible players tells you nothing.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 1859
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Fleet, Hampshire

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:45 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:18 pm
Looking at a grading list of eligible players tells you nothing.
It tells you how strong a team has the potential to be. A good captain, trying to run a successful team, would make use of this.

Nick Grey
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:55 pm

Having just answered an e-mail from captain on this year's competition at National Stages and neutral venue, I was wondering when Osfordshire disappeared as a County - does anyone know?

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8287
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: County Championship Consultation

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:28 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:45 pm
Michael Farthing wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:18 pm
Looking at a grading list of eligible players tells you nothing.
It tells you how strong a team has the potential to be. A good captain, trying to run a successful team, would make use of this.
Captains have come and captains have gone, and they've all made use of the resource to try to run a successful team, and the players have all said no.

Post Reply