Are finals different?

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CliveHill
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Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:10 pm

I would like to know what people think about 'the last round' - generally known as 'the final' in non-chess sports.

Should individuals/teams stick to what they know best or take a different approach?

Is it just a specific example of 'keeping the chimp in the box' or are other factors at play?

Although I have posted in the "not chess" section, I think it would be helpful to bring chess into the debate, but I have put it here because the example that led me to raise the question comes from tennis - also a 'one-to-one' sport!

http://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/car ... b1fcd3d5e4

All contributions gratefully received,

From Clive H (who has not been here for a long time!)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:35 pm

Last rounds of a big swiss or something? Tactics often dictated by whether it is really winner takes all. Also a big difference if a draw will get shared first with 2 people or chances for other people to go past/likely to share with masses of people etc.

Teams chess tactics don't change *too* much, except in as much as the stronger teams do need to play slightly differently when playing each other rather than people they'd expect to beat quite comfortably.

Tons of other scenarios too.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:26 pm

My own modest contribution to the theory of such situations.

CliveHill
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:58 pm

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'm rather distracted my latest attempt to find a suitable career (it's novelist this time) and I will return at greater length next time.

For now, I suspect that you should choose one approach and stick to it, although that could make you 'a target' if you never change - as with the footballer who always sends a penalty kick to the same side of the goal.

In the case of Caroline W (who now has 0/6 in finals this year) I suspect that she has fallen into the mind-set of "runner-up is a good result" as this is how I read her comments made before her latest setback.

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/tennis ... o-1.619127

All the best,

C

NickFaulks
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:39 pm

CliveHill wrote:In the case of Caroline W (who now has 0/6 in finals this year) I suspect that she has fallen into the mind-set of "runner-up is a good result" as this is how I read her comments made before her latest setback.
I followed the link and that's not how I read

"I had one year where I went to six finals and I won all of them," Wozniacki said. "I guess it's a give and take sometimes and just that I keep myself in these situations is awesome. I give myself a chance to win and that's what I'm going to go out (Sunday) and try to do."

CliveHill
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:40 am

Another reading might be that the losses are due to the tactics of the individual matches; as a regular follower of CW I tend to think it is more complicated than that.

CliveHill
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:20 am

For those of you who missed it, the good news is that CW finally got to 1/7.
And the stats at the bottom of the piece suggest that she was right to think that there wasn't really a problem.
But it is still a good peg on which to hang the question.
And I will come back to the general issue eventually, I promise; the problem is that just at the moment my life is summed up by Edvard Munch's most famous painting!

(But in a good way!)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/41377151

CliveHill
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:44 pm

Somewhat ironically, Caroline lost her first match in (technically in the second round of) her next tournament.

Which raises another important question in sport psychology - how do you maintain good form? Whether the problem is (mental) exhaustion or resting on your laurels, there is always something to think about!

CliveHill
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:45 pm

And so it seems that Caroline knew how to win the most important final of all, and is now ranked number three in the world!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/41795680

Reminds me a little bit of the year when Keke Rosberg won the Formula One championship with only two race wins (1982).

But it’s also worth thinking about the way scoring systems affect sporting philosophy and tactics (there are no draws in tennis – although there could be, just as there are draws in league format snooker). But that will have to be a topic for another day.

 (meant to be a smiley!)

CliveHill
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:55 pm

For anyone who missed it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/42844093
I suppose that apart from congratulating CW on her achievement the other point - which I should have thought of earlier - is her percentage of victories in all finals throughout her career. I will have to look this up/work it out at some point.

MJMcCready
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by MJMcCready » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:28 pm

It's hard to generalize regarding 'the last round' but I have seen over the years many instances where those slightly ahead of the field fix the final game with a quick draw, just to ensure they get their prize. The last time I saw it I missed the game because a draw was agreed after 4 moves, within 20 seconds or so. The final round can be a real anti-climax in chess.

CliveHill
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:22 am

Well, of course you can't fix the last round of a tennis tournament in that way! :-)

From a sporting point of view, 'Armageddon deciders' etc, have some advantages, although they are probably an offence against good chess!

MJMcCready
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by MJMcCready » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:12 pm

I have certainly noticed over the years that many of the complaints levelled against deciders were made for 'financial' reasons and not aesthetic ones.

CliveHill
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by CliveHill » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:18 pm

Nothing to do with finals, but following Caroline's tennis career is rarely dull!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2018/ ... nting-row/

MJMcCready
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Re: Are finals different?

Post by MJMcCready » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:37 am

Well its true that the complaints were mostly aimed at the earlier rounds against players low down in the rankings.

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