Euro 21

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Mick Norris
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Re: Euro 21

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:30 pm

Kane, Rashford, Trippier and Dier scored against Colombia in 2018; Henderson missed

Against the Swiss in the Nations League in 2019, Maguire, Barkley, Sancho, Sterling, Pickford & Dier scored

Based on this, choosing Kane, Maguire, Rashford & Sancho made sense to me, and I suspect that's why he substituted Henderson and brought on Rashford & Sancho

I thought Pickford was brilliant again; I thought Jorginho was bound to score after his penalty in the semi-final shootout v Spain
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Euro 21

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:50 pm

"but I can't help thinking of Mandy Rice Davies where this is concerned."

Yes - not sure all your audience will understand though!

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Euro 21

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:11 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:30 pm
Kane, Rashford, Trippier and Dier scored against Colombia in 2018; Henderson missed

Against the Swiss in the Nations League in 2019, Maguire, Barkley, Sancho, Sterling, Pickford & Dier scored

Based on this, choosing Kane, Maguire, Rashford & Sancho made sense to me, and I suspect that's why he substituted Henderson and brought on Rashford & Sancho

I thought Pickford was brilliant again; I thought Jorginho was bound to score after his penalty in the semi-final shootout v Spain
Thanks for that info. As an Arsenal fan I just can't get my head around Saka being given the fifth penalty. From what I can see he last took a penalty in an FA Youth Cup match in 2019 and only became an Arsenal regular in 2020-21. Even if his penalties were perfect in training it seems very surprising to not give the 5th to a more experienced player, Sterling for example.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Euro 21

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:30 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:00 pm
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:28 am
I don't think Southgate did anything that should surprise us in the final.
His selections as penalty takers certainly surprised me. There must be really bad blood between him and Grealish.
I meant surprised in the literal sense, rather than to indicate I felt he had made good decisions.

For what it is worth, I think the difference in ability between Southgate and Mancini probably greater than the difference between any pair of players in similar positions.

But I'm sticking to my extremely aggressive gatekeeping. People are only allowed to disagree with my opinions on football if they watched the Copa America final yesterday too. I'll accept Likely Ladsing it on Sunday morning. But if you only watched the highlights, do even care about football at all, bro?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Euro 21

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:57 pm

I did watch the Copa America final, as it happens. The winning goal was excellent, the rest of the match not so much.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Euro 21

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:00 pm

"Even if his penalties were perfect in training it seems very surprising to not give the 5th to a more experienced player, Sterling for example."

There is a precedent, admittedly in a pre-season friendly tournament a few years ago. Leeds played someone and it came down to penalties, and the manager got the 5 least experienced players to take them. There was no pressure or fear and they just ran up and kicked the ball quite hard and generally scored. Of course the result didn't actually matter then.

I feel sorry for the guys who failed to score yesterday, obviously they didn't mean that to happen, but is it really a good idea to do all this stop-start stuff and then expect to score with zero run-up?

David Williams
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Re: Euro 21

Post by David Williams » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:30 pm

I can think of three penalty shoot-outs that went the full distance, so if anything numbers 6 to 11 were under more pressure as it was sudden death. Arsenal had a League Cup game a few years ago, Liverpool beat Middlesbrough in one that went as far as 14-13, and there was Manchester United's recent Europa League final. And until De Gea's miss, every single one of the supposed lesser lights scored.

Liverpool's only failure in that match? The fifth, taken by Raheem Sterling!

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Euro 21

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:39 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:00 pm
t is it really a good idea to do all this stop-start stuff and then expect to score with zero run-up?
Well, if I had to pick a top three penalty takers in the world, I'd probably include Jorginho. I'll admit my argument slightly undermined by him missing yesterday. But one of the others stutters too.

I've spoken to several people who went on the same emotional rollercoaster as me "Oh no we've missed. Oh no, Jorghino hadn't taken one, its over. He's missed! Its coming home, its coming home. We are really going to steal this! Oh no, we've missed again. Its the hope that kills you isn't it?"

Famously the statistics say more penalties should be taken down the middle of the goal. I think there is a consensus people don't do it because you look a fool if the goalie just stands there and stops it.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Euro 21

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:56 pm

Deviating slightly to hockey, the HA Cup used to have penalty shoot-outs as well, but in barrages of 5, so if it were level after 5 each, you had another 5 each etc. This was fine until one shoot-out finished 31-29, when I imagine everyone had lost interest. The rules changed so that it went to sudden death after the first 5...

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JustinHorton
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Re: Euro 21

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:54 pm

John Aldridge used to pause his run-up when taking penalties for Oxford (for instance a League Cup semi-final at Villa Park if my memory doesn't deceive me) although in his case the intention was to induce a premature dive on the keeper's part.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Euro 21

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:23 am

David Williams wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:30 pm
I can think of three penalty shoot-outs that went the full distance, so if anything numbers 6 to 11 were under more pressure as it was sudden death.
I don't understand how that is less pressure than number 5. If it is already decided he/she won't be taking a penalty, otherwise he/she will either need to score to win or score to equalise and keep his/her team in the shoot-out. At any rate, you wouldn't save players for 6-11.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Euro 21

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:34 am

https://theathletic.com/2702850/2021/07 ... euro-2020/

A subscription site so I should be careful with their copyright. But the FA data analysis decided the order did not matter too much.

The last one of their ten key questions is "Why didn’t England’s years of penalty research pay off?" The answer is you still need to be lucky, including with the coin toss. Going first is a big advantage statistically.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Euro 21

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:10 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:23 am
David Williams wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:30 pm
I can think of three penalty shoot-outs that went the full distance, so if anything numbers 6 to 11 were under more pressure as it was sudden death.
I don't understand how that is less pressure than number 5. If it is already decided he/she won't be taking a penalty, otherwise he/she will either need to score to win or score to equalise and keep his/her team in the shoot-out. At any rate, you wouldn't save players for 6-11.
I should clarify that I meant going second. The number 5 going first's team could be 1 up or 1 down when he/she takes his/her kick.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Euro 21

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:11 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:34 am
https://theathletic.com/2702850/2021/07 ... euro-2020/

A subscription site so I should be careful with their copyright. But the FA data analysis decided the order did not matter too much.

The last one of their ten key questions is "Why didn’t England’s years of penalty research pay off?" The answer is you still need to be lucky, including with the coin toss. Going first is a big advantage statistically.
That's why I prefer the ABBA order albeit seeing Rashford & Sancho takes theirs without an Italian one in the middle might have been even more traumatic.

Mick Norris
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Re: Euro 21

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:58 am

David Williams wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:30 pm
I can think of three penalty shoot-outs that went the full distance, so if anything numbers 6 to 11 were under more pressure as it was sudden death. Arsenal had a League Cup game a few years ago, Liverpool beat Middlesbrough in one that went as far as 14-13, and there was Manchester United's recent Europa League final. And until De Gea's miss, every single one of the supposed lesser lights scored.

Liverpool's only failure in that match? The fifth, taken by Raheem Sterling!
Well, the most obvious is England u21; I think it was Stuart Pearce who started the England research, and the formal practicing of penalties in training in the format of penalty shootouts; Gareth would be aware of this, and indeed have spoken with him about this

Subsequently we beat Sweden and lost 13-12 to the Netherlands u21s

Nedum Onuoha talked about this at length on Radio 5live yesterday, including how Joe Hart was excellent at taking penalties

Maybe we should have had Ben Chilwell on the pitch, and James Ward-Prowse available, as both scored for the u21s against Germany
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