Student fees and protests/riots

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:48 pm

In another thread, it was asked: "anyone here affected by, or have any opinions about the current riots in London?" Not me, but I hope they don't start protesting in Olympia! But yeah, the news tonight made me feel like I was living through the French Revolution! (Well, OK, maybe the May Day riots - OK, not even that, but still, when was the last time there were protests like this - did this sort of thing happen in the anti-Iraq war protests?)

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:03 pm

No, they were (remarkably, perhaps) almost 100% peaceful.

The anti poll tax demos of two decades ago are a much more apposite comparison, imo.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Richard Thursby » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:55 am

If they don't like the fees here they can always try studying in the United States. :)

George Szaszvari
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by George Szaszvari » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:04 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:In another thread, it was asked: "anyone here affected by, or have any opinions about the current riots in London?" Not me, but I hope they don't start protesting in Olympia! But yeah, the news tonight made me feel like I was living through the French Revolution! (Well, OK, maybe the May Day riots - OK, not even that, but still, when was the last time there were protests like this - did this sort of thing happen in the anti-Iraq war protests?)
The anti Vietnam war protests in the UK during the 60s and 70s got pretty hairy at times (Grosvenor Sq
in London, was a spectacle) along with more spontaneous general world wide civil unrest during 1968.
Later there were several riots in Brixton, London, but more recently globalization seems to be more a reason
to protest and express mayhem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-globa ... n_movement

Protests can sometimes be organized by "professional career protesters", as often happens here in the US
with the same familiar faces fomenting disorder wherever they feel their presence can get media coverage,
thereby "justifying" their presence. The emotive force behind larger protests can be a mixture of frustrations,
starting out with a legitimate concern, but rolling along with a snowball effect, picking up anyone along the
way who feels the need to vent some steam. There has been quite a lot to feel pissed off about recently!

One of my favorite studies on these matters is: "Markets, Mobs and Mayhem: A Modern Look At the Madness
of Crowds" by Robert Menschel, John Wiley 2002.

Alan Walton
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Alan Walton » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:49 am

I have been thinking about the situation now and comparing to when I went back to university in 1998

Then I had to pay the fees myself (no grants this time), these were £1000 per year

I got 2 student loans of £3500 and £4500, and after finishing I started paying them back in Oct 2002

Then the salary level was around £15,000 which was increased to approx £18000 a few years later (say 2007)

Currently I earn around £24000 and pay £38 per month back (got about 3 years left to finish paying off)

Considering students nowaday may have to take loans out per year of £12000 (£9000 fees, £3000 cost of living), so they may owe £35000 approx, if somebody earn't around £24000 i would expect them to be paying back at least £100 per month

So how can Cameron/Clegg so students are better off

Sorry about this little rant, but I worry about any 16 year olds going to uni in the near future unless they have parents with deep pockets

George Szaszvari
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by George Szaszvari » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:08 pm

Alan Walton wrote:I have been thinking about the situation now and comparing to when I went back to university in 1998
Then I had to pay the fees myself (no grants this time), these were £1000 per year
I got 2 student loans of £3500 and £4500, and after finishing I started paying them back in Oct 2002
Then the salary level was around £15,000 which was increased to approx £18000 a few years later (say 2007)
Currently I earn around £24000 and pay £38 per month back (got about 3 years left to finish paying off)
Considering students nowaday may have to take loans out per year of £12000 (£9000 fees, £3000 cost of living), so they may owe £35000 approx, if somebody earn't around £24000 i would expect them to be paying back at least £100 per month
So how can Cameron/Clegg so students are better off
Sorry about this little rant, but I worry about any 16 year olds going to uni in the near future unless they have parents with deep pockets
Every right to rant...times have gotten tough for a lot of people, and now the reality check hits
hard. Blame it on the greed of the recent world wide toxic loans debacle, including politicians,
financiers, brokers, etc, to say nothing of the gullible public buying into totally unrealistic mortgages.
The whole idea was originally approved and promoted during the Clinton administration by, guess
who? So called left wingers like Rahm Emanuel (specialist in Chicago gangster style politics) and
George Soros (Black Wednesday 1992: when asked why he didn't seem to have a problem with
the morality of what he did, he just laughed!)...they pretended they were doing the poor a favor...
IMO these very scary people knew exactly what they were doing ("never waste a good crisis",
"world government is the only way forward", etc...) Cameron and Clegg just look like marionettes
without answers, other than austerity measures, BSing their way through.

Some interesting comments were published on this site:

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/groups/politi ... -protests/

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Neill Cooper » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:01 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Considering students nowaday may have to take loans out per year of £12000 (£9000 fees, £3000 cost of living), so they may owe £35000 approx, if somebody earn't around £24000 i would expect them to be paying back at least £100 per month
"Under the Government's proposals, graduates will start repaying their loans only when their earnings reach £21,000 a year – rather than the current threshold of £15,000. As happens now, graduates will then repay 9p in every £1 they earn above this limit, with the repayments automatically deducted through their payroll." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... ation.html

I reckon that to be £270 a year if on £24,000/yr. To pay £100 a month they would need to be on about £34,300/yr. The good side - less to pay per month. The bad side - they will always be in debt.

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:16 pm

If you end up only earning £24,000/year, why go to University in the first place? If the end aim is for a high profile job somewhere, you'll be earning far more than that.

If fewer people go to University, in the end, a degree will become a far more valuable qualification. So people with degrees will be able to acquire higher salaries. This in turn means that the investment of £27,000 off the bat to go to University isn't such a bad thing, because you'll be earning a lot more the other side. A common complaint from some at the moment is that a degree is worthless, because "everybody" has them. At least that gets rid of that attitude.

I don't think that students paying for University education is necessarily worse than state funding. It's just a different way of doing it. I'm very much agnostic on this one...

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by johnmcbride » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:20 pm

The government are treating people like idiots. 21,000 is based on wages in six years time, minus inflation and we are back to 16,000 in real income. The more they go on about 21,000 and forget the six years from now detail, the less trust and more angry people involved will feel.

It is an idealogical elitist policy, devised by people whose families thought nothing of paying 5 figures per year for them to go to top private schools. I cannot believe I voted for Nick Cleggs party.

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:08 am

johnmcbride wrote:The government are treating people like idiots. 21,000 is based on wages in six years time, minus inflation and we are back to 16,000 in real income. The more they go on about 21,000 and forget the six years from now detail, the less trust and more angry people involved will feel.
I believe that that is not correct, as it was announced that the figure of £21,000 would be index linked (to 2012 values iirc). There is a lot of misinformation being put about: much deliberately so.
Last edited by Paul McKeown on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:20 am

Neill Cooper wrote:"Under the Government's proposals, graduates will start repaying their loans only when their earnings reach £21,000 a year – rather than the current threshold of £15,000. As happens now, graduates will then repay 9p in every £1 they earn above this limit, with the repayments automatically deducted through their payroll." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... ation.html

I reckon that to be £270 a year if on £24,000/yr. To pay £100 a month they would need to be on about £34,300/yr. The good side - less to pay per month. The bad side - they will always be in debt.
It is my understanding that there will be a taper from £21,000 at 3p in the pound to £41,000 at which point the full 9p in the pound would apply. For graduates on lower incomes, the new arrangements should be considerably less onerous than the current arrangements, however they pay the loans back over 30 years. Annual repayments which would result in the loan being redeemed early will be penalised with a 5% surcharge, as I understand current thinking, although this is subject to revision.

For middle to higher earning graduates who are unable to fully redeem the loans early, the new arrangements will be more onerous than the current system, whilst for the highest earning graduates (city hotshots &c), there will a considerable increase in the payment, not that they will bat an eyelid.

The current Labour idea of a graduate tax is just awful; that would apply till death does the taxman and the graduate part. I can't understand why Johnson caved into Milliband on this point, apart from singing from the same hymn sheet. Just another system of graduate payment, without the redeeming features of the current system or the new system. Of course, Labour will not rescind graduate payments. For that you would need the Greens to be the largest party in government.

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by johnmcbride » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:21 am

Watching the parliamentary debate (plus other political interviews) it was discussed that the indexation will be year on year from 2016 (a concession forced at the last moment). No one on the government benches have argued otherwise.

I have heard nothing to say that the indexation will begin earlier than 2016. I would be interested to see any links with information to the contrary.

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:39 am

John,

I could be wrong, but I'm damn near sure that I heard David Willetts announce the indexation as a last minute clarification and it was specifically to counter the allegation that the threshold of 21k would be reduced by inflation to a similar value to the current value of 15k. I didn't follow the debate verbatim: who made that statement? Government or opposition?

The best source for facts is the DTI website if you are sufficiently motivated as to establish the truth behind the government's proposals, though do bear in mind that several further debates are to be held establishing further details of the new policy. As I understand it, the recent debate concerned only the specific matter of the increase in the annual undergraduate course fee and the several further debates will establish the repayment schedules, the payments to universities, the scholarships and more.

I don't really want to get involved in a potentially inflammatory discussion, just want to suggest that, as with most things political, it is better to get behind the newspaper headlines and oppositional slogans, if one wishes to get at the truth.

Regards,
Paul

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:20 am

Paul McKeown wrote:Annual repayments which would result in the loan being redeemed early will be penalised with a 5% surcharge, as I understand current thinking, although this is subject to revision.
I should go and look it up myself, but is there any provision for people to pay the entire amount upfront without taking out a loan? I'm thinking here of people who have the money already (e.g. undergraduates with wealthy parents, students with sponsorship of some kind from industry, graduates returning to university after saving up money from their current job, and, to use the classic example, anyone who wins the lottery). It would seem a bit silly to force people to pay more if they have the money already.

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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:35 am

Christopher

Presumably they just make the payment direct to the university and not apply for the student loan for the full amount

My view is that people will not be getting just the £9000 student loan to cover the cost of the course, students will also need funding to cover the cost of living and any additional costs associated with the course (books etc), therefore students would obviously be borrowing around £12000 per annum

I think one of the other contencious parts of the current government plan is to reduce university funding by 80%, when other services are only getting a reduction of around 10% funding, thus saying that the majority of university funding will now be on the onus of the student/parents, and isn't this really just like the current grammar school system, which is acknowledge a more elitest way of schooling

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